Before this thread took off on a tongue slapping, I have to agree with the earlier comments… Leesburg COULD have a lot to offer if only it would make it a place to visit.  There are no retailers in old downtown area that draw in visitors/customers.  First, I would love to see Leesburg revitalize the historical look of the town (look at Old Town Alexandria, Middleburg to name a few) & extend it beyond Loudoun Street.  Second, keep “antique” stores to a dull roar and recruit more variety/eclectic retail & restaurants. Stores like Pier One that are in the non-historical part of town, why weren’t they encouraged/enticed to be placed in the historical part of downtown? Then, once revitalized, redevelop the land/street scapes. Seems like $$ is being put towards a backasswards project.  I have always thought Leesburg has so much potential but it falls severely short and I just question where guidance is coming from.

A new name on the landscape.  A scrappy lad, with a quick wit, and a winning smile.  Its Point Made.  Although, I don’t think I like the idea of being declared dead, at this point in my writing life.  So, I think I’ll ignore the possibilities, and say, where’s Mr. example please, that lovable lug of a secret poster, downtown property owner?

RIP, T

Once again, Mr. example please, tell us which building you own in the downtown of Leesburg, let us all in on the dollars in your pocket, let us all in on your personal gain on this one.

Once again, not answering the direct question posed to you, but deflecting attention away from it. Do you have nothing else to say about the subject any more? WHy don’t you give us some actual business names that went out of business after the Leesburg or County government centers were built. Actual businesses. Not that you could prove without a reasonable doubt that their closing was 100% caused by said buildings being built, but go ahead, name ‘em.

Re: Connector.  Sidewalks and trails are a normal part of infrastructure found in cities and towns. If people don’t want sidewalks or connectivity with their neighbors, they usually choose to live outside of incorporated towns. The same goes for “organizations”!  Regardless of how they try to spin it, the Church and School would probably be a better fit outside the Town limits to meet the isolation, privacy, and campus-like-desires they argued for last Tuesday night. Umstattd, Reid, and Dunn cloak themselves as “fiscal warriors” when they simply jumped on the baseless, shallow scare tactics and arguments of the charlatans who spoke.  With Umstattd “cutting” the project because of the “anxieties created”.  This crowd feels empowered by identifying potential enemies (outsiders, transients, the boogie man, etc.) Whoever they are—we don’t want them near our church!  They’re not our kind of people!  Go rent Elmer Gantry for entertainment and enlightenment about people who don’t think for one iota for themselves.

Anything you say, example please.  Clearly, you are a property owner in the downtown.  Admit it.  Your arguments give you away.  As does you quick discomfort with my last post.  Feeding at the public trough, eh.

A.  Your 2 examples of Government Office Buildings ARE NOT - how much clearer must it be - ARE NOT streetscape improvement plans like Leesburg just passed. Thus, your “examples” are invalid. Can you not see this difference??

B. I am anything but a business owner, downtown or otherwise, but support this government investment in the downtown, and believe that it will result in a more vibrant, economically successful economy for downtown businesses.  You take the opposite belief, that is fine, but when you make ABSOLUTE statements of failure and misery as a result of the streetscape plan, that’s what I have to call out. Your opinion is one thing, spouting factual innuendo will get a comment. I then asked you to back up your stated fact (that this streetscape will kill downtown businesses), and you spend the next several days dodging the question and playing cute-sy verbal warfare.

I just want to hear you give an example of a failed streetscape improvement investment. If there is anyone else out there who can state this request in clearer english so that “T” can understand, please help out.

I love your use of the word"substantiating” Mr. example please.  You have made your game playing very clear, and yet you persist in not admitting such.  First, two examples are not enough, then, the examples are not something you will accept, and then, you don’t like being referred to as heartless, bloodless and cruel (and I can not help repeating) stupid.  The bottom line is, you are in support of a $7,000,000.00 plus project, and you do not care what happens to the merchants who are put out of business because of this.  So, I now am concluding you are a building owner in the downtown.  If so, I can see why you take the position you do.

I don’t know how you got to “stats”, unless you are referring to the whopping number of TWO incorrect examples of streetscape projects you provided (You cited the Leesburg and Loudoun County government buildings as ‘projects’ that presumably drove out businesses, and actually, that couldn’t be farther from the truth, as having all those employees stay downtown is essential to the restaurants and convenience services. This can be exemplified by when, 2-3 years ago, the Board sought RFP’s for new government center locations, and the Town of Leesburg spoke against removing it (and all those employees) from the Town, (and especially the current downtown location), because the local (downtown) economy is now so linked to those employees. Removing them would be a drastic blow - the exact opposite of what you claimed happened when the County Gvt Center was built.)

You’re an arguer who cannot answer the challenge of substantiating your statements. I’ve actually got a list of failed streetscape projects in mind, I set you up with such an easy challenge, but you clearly don’t know enough about the subject of streetscape improvements to even back up your claim about what will happen to Leesburg. So sad that such people claim to care about the best interests of the Town, but bring so little to the discussion table.

Dear example please, I am glad you finally admitted you were wrong.  Stats people like you, should, of course, take your views, and try to remember people are what is important, not your development gibberish.

T, that personal rant about me was just gibberish. Your two examples were GOVERNMENT OFFICE BUILDINGS, not streetscape improvements. The fact that you can’t tell the difference is all that this audience needs to know that your “facts” that downtown Leesburg will suffer even more after the proposed improvements are built are bogus. You’re full of hot air, sir/madam. Admitting that one is wrong is the first step toward inner peace. Good luck.

Actually, examples please, I did give you two examples of construction projects in the Leesburg downtown area that did great harm.  It is you, foolish fellow, who wrapped your posts in so much gobblediegoop that it made no sense, and evidenced your true view of life:  You live in the world of statistics and doublespeak.  A world where people are not real, only a point on a graph.  You live in a world apart from the rest of us, and I truly feel sorry for you.  You do not mind running over people, so long as it is for a purpose you feel “necessary and greater good.”

T - “no way to properly respond, since you are such an idiot.”  The proper way to respond is by saying, no, I CANNOT come up with any real world examples of public infrastructure projects that, after completion, resulted in less business retention in the properties directly affected by the investment. That’s pretty easy, no?

“You are heartless, callous, and have an agenda.” - This response also diverts attention from our conversation topic, and only means to makes you feel better by calling me names. No examples = you have no point. Nice bust on Fred, btw.

And yet, Fred, you managed to find a computer.

What childish banter!  Where are the adults here? Kids get off the computer!

So, what then, Joe Leesburg, my real estate taxes go up, so you can eat like a pig?  I don’t think so.

How about saving that the seven mil and cut taxes to draw in businesses.  I refuse to pay the restaurant tax to fund Mayor Umstaad.  Look at the failures of the north east where they spent oodles of money to spruce up things; lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

Dear Examples Please, I am sorry I did not answer you question properly.  Of course, in reading your reply, it is clear there was no way to properly respond, since you are such an idiot.  You are heartless, callous, and have an agenda.  Get real.

sidewalks?

I remind you that this path was a “connector” trail to the W&OD; trail.  My concern has more to do with the increased traffic of cyclists on this path.  Bicycle traffic will increase dramatically with the addition of the connector and will put people at risk while crossing driveways.  Just as the bicycles have to deal with crossing a road.  However, bikes have to stop at the road, they don’t have to stop at a driveway.

Sidewalks are not the issue.  They don’t carry anything close to the bicycle traffic that is on the W&OD;. It’s the increase in pedestrian and bicycle traffic that a path would create that is the safety issue and not sidewalks.

I ride on the trail myself and have seen many incidents over the years on the trail from riders trying to cross without stopping.  This risk would have only increased when traveling over a high volume driveway.

Thankful - don’t sidewalks that are throughout all our communities in the county, that go right in front of churches, and schools, and businesses, already exist and function just fine? This new path would have been just the same, but a 10’ wide multi-use instead of a 5’ concrete sidewalk. At the heart, it was just a sidewalk, so you guys are arguing against sidewalks, which again, are everywhere and in fact required. This was selfishness and fear-mongering, and the true reasons still escape me. I would respect the opposition if just for the desire not to spend the $$, taht’d be fine, but I’m hearing much more of these made-up scare tactics.

T - the topic here is infrastructure improvements like that proposed for Leesburg - new/wider sidewalks, street trees, lighting, parking changes, traffic calming, general streetscape stuff here. That’s what I asked for citations of from you. And you gave me two redevelopment building projects that also happened to be government buildings. This just compounds your inane distaste for government as a whole.  These are not streetscape improvements. But if you want to discuss how new development/redevelopments in the core of downtown have affected things, let’s look at the Tuscarora Mill complex and the new multi-tenant office building project across from it (Loudoun/Harrison corner). Tuscarora was redeveloped from a former industrial site at the heart of downtown into a multi-use commercial success (success being, an abandoned heap to viable commercial space paying taxes and drawing people to it. Yes, there may be an occasional vacancy there. Vacancies happen in the best of economies and areas).  The new construction took a few very old wood structures (harbingers of that same rural, industrial economy that Leesburg used to serve) and when done, will provide modern, vertical office space with architecture befitting the historic-ness of downtown. It might not be perfect, but it’s a better draw to the downtown than what was there (4 Shabby chicks warehouse). So again, I ask for some examples of local infrastructure projects that - after they were built - drove out or resulted in even less economic activities for the properties they directly served.

It doesn’t matter what facility we are walking about on this one. If it is a business, a multi-family residence (condominiums), or a religious facility, any path that goes across 3 entrances to a facility that sees thousands of car passes each week would be a problem.  The danger that this would cause to drivers and pedestrians is great.  Stand at one of those driveways at school drop-off, or after a church service and then you might have a better understanding of the physical dangers this path would have created.

Please remember this before you attack a facility for preventing injury.

Great post, Mr. Engle.  Well said.

Ted Collins, you’re an idiot. We’re glad you’re in Md. Stay there in the “People’s Republic of Md”

Just because the property was going to be taken from a church does not mean that the people of Leesburg should expect the church to give up the only property it had left for expansion.
The church already gave up property and by the way SW, the church was willing to give up property for the drainage behind the property for their neighbors. They were willing to split the land and they would give up half the land needed and the neighbors would give up the other half. But no, the neighbors and the town felt that the church should give up enough property for it all. Not to mention the town did not want to pay fair market value for the land either. So when the church pushed back, the town just voted to condemn the property and take it anyway. Not exactly appropriate.
I don’t see why the church should be expected to give up all the land it owns whenever someone says they want it for the “sake of the town”. Plus you have the land that the church also already gave up for the Dominion Power needs.
I personally think that this church has done it’s civic duty. And no the church does not pay taxes but the Members of the church do.

Dear examples please:  How about this one - the County Government Center (you know, the five story one, assuming you get downtown and actually know where that is)  was going to save the downtown.  All kinds of business were going to flood into the downtown, it was going to be GREAT.  It not only did nothing, but many of the businesses in that area have since closed.  Second, and this is probably way past your memory, there was the Town Hall expansion, that was going to save the downtown.  Again, large amounts of parking were lost, and again, many of the existing businesses went out of business.  If you are capable of thinking for a litttttte bit, you migggggght just come to understand that a business owner is not going to be very happy seeing a torn up King Street, construction equipment everywhere, dust, noise, etc., and no parking.  And no one in the business.

Oh, and by the way, we really don’t miss you Ted, have fun with all of the “happy people” up there.

T - I want to hear some case study examples of downtowns that, AFTER the local government spent money to improve infrastructure, businesses left in droves and the local economy of the area was depressed further than it was before improvements. I await your list. Because I know that I don’t know of any such areas, but can list parts of Fairfax City, old town Alexandria, Clarendon/Ballston, and Purcellville (near the WOD terminus). I believe Round Hill has a plan to add sidewalks and lighting to the intersection of Business 7 and Main Street, which is their ‘downtown’ area if there is one. So get crackin’!

I am glad we have posters like swleesburgva and A, both of whom know so much more than us mere mortals.  I never knew that Leesburg was waiting for a rebirth, when cars would be banned from town, and we all walked, or that members of our town, especially if they go to church, are bad.  I’ve leaned so much from you two, NOT!

I find this whole idea that downtown Leesburg is dead rather amusing and some of the other comments almost embarrassingly silly. First if you want to see a dead downtown go to most any small town in the northeast, upstate New York is filled with dead downtowns that make Leesburg look like a stunning metropolis. My wife and I stroll through downtown Leesburg pretty much two or three times a week, we can always get a good meal, a cold beer or a good cup of coffee. As for anybody that complains about the police presence I would have to say “You’re kidding, right?” I mean really, too much police presence? I guess if you are breaking the law that might be the case but the fact is I welcome them and I have never had a problem with any of them in my 8 years here and have always found them to be friendly as we walk past them. It is amazing when probably 80 percent of people in the country are complaining about lack of police people here complain about being kept safe. As for empty stores, businesses come and go, it’s just a fact of life and it is not limited to downtown Leesburg, look around, many of even the chain stores are gone that were here just a few years ago. If you open a business that offers product of services that people want you will be successful pretty much anywhere. The whole point I am trying to make here is that we should be thankful that we have such a lovely and quaint downtown and appreciate it for what it is instead of tearing it down for what it is not.

Bad food, poor service, crabby over weight business owners, hot single women hiding in their houses, police everywhere, an expensive toll road, crabby over weight drunken church people leads to not having fun and not spending money.

    Here’s the moral of the story you need business and spending to generate tax revenue to provide services.  That’s why I moved me and the business to Maryland to be around happy people who understand customer service and freedom.
 
    Your right Christian church people, who don’t even “practice what they preach” have destroyed Leesburg, Loudoun and Winchester.

I don’t care what improvements are done to downtown, unless you have businesses that stay open after 5 or 6 PM and offer merchandise that consumers want, it will remain a ghost town.  Take a walk along King, Market and Loudoun and check out all the empty storefronts.  While you are on your little stroll, talk to some of the business owners and ask them how business is going. Consumers are staying away in droves.

SW Connector:  The Council vote was, in part, a response to the purposeful flooding of chambers with church people.  Interesting to see the strong muscles flexed by church people when they want to get involved—whoa! It was quite the memorable scene, sort of a mix between “Our Town” and some aspects of “Elmer Gantry”.  Voting it down because of “bad economy” is an easy, but very weak, justification for a Town with a per capita income well above the national norm.  The bottom money-line is that it’s so nice of the four, “fiscally-conservative” Council members (Umstattd, Hammler, Reid, Dunn) to cave-in to an organization that pays ZERO TAXES to the town piggy bank.  **Note this is the same organization that did not want to give up land along their rear property line for the neighborhood drainage project—what a shining church testimony to offer up to the surrounding neighbors and their needs.

Downtown: Until downtown brings in businesses people NEED and WANT it will remain the ghost-town it remains after 5 pm ... I don’t have a need for a fortune-teller or drinking 6 dollar glasses of wine. To see a relatively successful downtown, go to Berryville.

Debbie and T,
Maybe you guys should do some research about urban design…Newsflash: Downtowns and town squares throughout Europe don’t have any parking and they are some of the most well visited places. Furthermore, I can think of several businesses downtown that are always bustling and busy. I can also think of several business that are pretty lame…If you serve bad food or sell overpriced junk then you will go out of business, on street parking or not. Check out the link if think I am off my rocker.
http://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_dissects_suburbia.html
PS. $7 million in the context of civic projects does not deserve three “very” get a grip.

Be careful, RR, what you say about Ken Reid.  I think it is safer to say, that Ken Reid made many of his business supporters angry at him, with his inconsistent position on this.  It appears that, if a cross walk was the only reason Ken Reid opposed a portion of this downtown improvement project, he missed the clear point.  This project, as a whole, is way too expensive, and will cause many businesses to go out of business.

Agreed.  It seems from what I have read that Ken Reid was the only one to take the initiative to slow this baby down.  Also, Dunn and Umstattd supported him.

Leesburg done because there’s too many cops scaring away people and business. Plus the toll road is a problem for this area also.

    I open up an office in Maryland 6 months ago and the place is happy, hopping and spending money. Now I know why they call it the free state.

Sure, apathy route.  I guess you think the thing to do is throw $7,000,000.00 at something, and then say, “there, I’ve taken care of the situation.”  So, I am not putting my head in the sand.  What I am doing, is pointing out, that this is a very, very, very expensive project, that will, will, will, put businesses out of business.  And There You Go.

Downtown Leesburg is dead.  This is a HUGE waste of taxpayer money, I would rather see it go to a worthwhile project than to invest it in a downtown that has huge vacancy rates and businesses that close at 5 PM.  They are widening the street to bring non-existent customers to non-existent stores.

And apathy, T, leads to what? More of the same? Or just, the same old same old. I guess you are happy w/ the same old. Others aren’t. Others see a brighter future than what exists now. You, you want to put your head in the sand and magically wait for someone else to do something, or for ‘the economy’ to recover. Well, doing nothing makes neither of those occurrences happen any quicker.

A mixed bag.  Both projects are a waste of money, and the impact alone makes both a bad idea.