If the government had to knock on the door of residents and make them write a check for $1,000 for Metro Rail, people would be outraged.  But since it’ll come in the form of property taxes, they won’t notice that they are losing $1,000 a year so they can stay asleep.  But our BoS are supposed to be awake and paying attention for us.  Please vote against Metro Rail!

Crazyness must have gotten the “be fearful” memo from Cheney.  Rail should have been here long ago; I agree with burndude and Lobster Claw; it will be a bigger attractant for business than will any of the “war on women” legislation currently under consideration.

METRO TO DULLES = a cheap way for the city thugs to hit your house and get back into the city while you are at work.

Can’t we all get along?

What do you people have against Dick? I voted for Dick and I’m glad we have a God-fearing man like Dick in office. I will support Dick Black for as long as he will give us his service. Maybe you can blame all of your problems on someone other than Dick.

There are lots of offices that built along the toll road with no metro…. offices locate based on location, and yes, the metro is an amenity, but having it only a few miles away is good enough for now… the businesses will come anyway, if they are going to come.

Lots of people worried about the federal government downsizing and the 90,000 jobs that will be lost in Northern Virginia… most believe there is an oversupply of Office in Fairfax and closer locations, so it’s going to be a LOOOONG time before we see any economic benefit from rail…

Spend our transit dollars on fixing our incomplete road system and BUSSES!  Please.  More than 2/3 of our County does not even have public water or sewer… many who have poor water are told it is “too expensive” to fix the problem… and live with temporary fix after temporary fix…Metro is for urban areas with much higher density and many many more cars…. and 2 miles of metro is nothing… if you are going to build it, we need it across the County, like in Fairfax, Arlington and all the other Counties that have Metro… it has to be a system.

Right now, it is more about getting DC and Arlington residents to the higher paying jobs out here… it is not about Loudoun, and not in Loudoun’s interest…

For anyone interested, one last fact to add to the conversation from Scott York’s latest newsletter:
“I am also pleased to report that we do have private firms that are interested in building and operating the parking garages associated with the rail project. This will help build that infrastructure at NO taxpayer dollars.”

@burndude - I’ve learned the hard way that trying to have a constructive dialogue with ‘oversold and under delivered’ is futile.  Nobody is allowed to voice another opinion, and he/she refuses to acknowledge anything positive could possibly result from the project.  I get called names and accused of manipulating numbers by people who choose to most often ignore them altogether.

Luckily for folks like you and I who support the project, there are people in positions of power on the BOS who do as well!  I believe our county can thrive by growing our economy, attracting businesses, and supporting projects like Dulles Rail in the eastern part of the county, while at the same time maintaining the character and natural beauty in the west.  Metro to Loudoun has the potential to be a win-win for us all.

Anybody willing to say MWAA is not using Dulles Toll Road tolls to pay for 75% of the cost of Phase 2, but who tries to say it is less because we also have to add in the costs of Phase 2, to make that a smaller percentage, is guilty of manipulating the truth in my mind, and I honestly do not know regular citizens who want this so badly that they are willing to play with the numbers like you did Lobster, my friend.

Question for the taxpayer:  Would you like to pay billions to bring rail into the median of the Greenway, 2.5 miles into Loudoun, or would you rather pay NOTHING and have it end at Dulles Airport, with another close by station at Rte 28?

Smaller tolls, smaller project… and Biggest Benefit: Loudoun is not dictated to by WMATA and MWAA to pay for past mismanagement and future union driven rules in a currently unspecified annual subsidy for operations, FOREVER…. and consider that Fairfax County is paying, just for operation costs, almost $100M/year and the rail is not even close to being finished…  horrible deal for us…

Even staff says it will not be close to break even for 30 years, and it all depends on us rezoning our county…. we need MUCH more density to afford this… will be a nightmare county to live in for the next 30-50 years….pressure on the transition zone, pressure on western Loudoun… Huge fights coming…

I guess that’s a new rule now - anyone who is FOR a development project is clearly a “tool for the developers”.  So if I voice support for a new school to be built in my neighborhood, I must CLEARLY be a developer or a tool for the developer. 

Does it occur to any of you that I might be in favor of a project because I believe that it will improve things?

Your arguments are all conjecture and you have no solid response to LC except to call him names, insult him and imply that he’s a developer (or benefited lobbyist). 

The funny part is, this whole drama is conjecture! If you guys really think rail isn’t happening, you’re mistaken! I’ll be here to say “I told you so” later on.

@Ashestoashe - Wow, great argument!  I’m convinced!

@oversold and under delivered - I’ve given up on you.  You repeat the same 2-3 talking points again and again and you conveniently ignore the majority of the questions I’ve asked you.  You’ve made multiple personal assumptions and attacks on me , as have a couple of other people (all false).  Typically that’s what people resort to when they have no substance to their argument.

Maybe oversold is Dick Black in sheeps clothing, what do you you say LC? Any stats there you care to agree with or is this all hyperbole?

Lobster Claw, now I know you are a developer tool.

Originally MWAA told us they only had to raise the toll on the Dulles Toll Road 50 cents to pay for phase 1.  Now they are telling us they will double it again, and phase 1 is not finished, phase 2 has no preliminary cost estimate yet…

It is absolute fact that MWAA is planning on paying for 75% of phase 2 with dulles toll road tolls…. phase 1 and phase 2 are split up for a reason, they are separately financed…

Yes, it was laughable that anyone would expect the Federal Government to give us any construction money for phase 2 after what they initially said about phase 1—and it took the Democrats twisting arms to get the money for phase 1, including Time Kaine “giving” the Toll Road to MWAA for free, so they would have a revenue source…

The FTA said, for phase 1 which includes Falls Church and Tyson’s corner, that :

“In a January 24 (2008) letter, FTA Administrator James Simpson notified Virginia Governor Tim Kaine that the Dulles Rail project in its current form would receive an overall New Starts rating of “Medium-Low,” which would render it ineligible to advance into Final Design and receive federal assistance of up to $1.5 billion (a $900 million New Starts grant, plus a $375 million TIFIA loan and a $200 million line of credit to be used if needed).

Besides the project’s low cost-effectiveness, the letter also questioned the soundness of the capital financial plan and the management arrangements under which the project would be implemented. “I have serious concerns whether it would be appropriate to continue further investment of federal New Starts funds in this project,” Simpson’s letter concluded.”

So yes, they told us then what the federal standards were, and there was analysis of the density in Loudoun, and we were told there would be no federal funding for phase 2—Yes you are correct, there was never any misunderstanding that the federal government would help with phase 2—because it makes so little financial sense…

Lobster Claw, you obviously are one of the 1% who will win big on this,,,  the ridership is optimistically predicted to be 1% of the county’s population… and less than 5% of the County’s commuters… yet you want us to put all our money into this one project….to extend it 2.5 miles into Loudoun….when it will come to Rt 28 and another stop at the airport anyway, and then we pay nothing?

We are still building schools.  Fairfax is done building schools, and they are putting their trailers away because their population has aged…. we cannot afford this…

We need more parking lots for commuters and busses….cheap, reliable, not a ball and chain around our necks… no obligation to WMATA or MWAA (controlled by unions) and best thing our busses pays for themselves…..

So Lobster Claw IS Tony Howard, hmmmmm.

Did you read it or not? Have you read the posts here and bothered to look up any of the info on the debt and maintenance costs. Lay off the coffee and the energy drinks LC, I feel if you don’t continue your meds you may spin away further into never never land. 1 or 2 large companies oh yeah that’s a great expenditure butt for who? Lets not factor in the cost overruns and history of the Mwaa and how’s that toll road cost working for you?

@burndude - I’m glad to see there’s at least a handful of other people on here who recognize that there are pros to this project!  Clearly growth and progress are the pinnacle of evil.  As to referenced facts, I’ve got a few more below…

@Ashestoashe - Yes, because Dick Black is God and nobody should question his opinion.  Do you have anything compelling to add to the conversation other than “because Dick Black said so”?

@oversold and under delivered - I’ll give you credit for trying to provide sources and evidence.  Too bad that quote you provided is in reference to Phase I being denied federal funds initially in 2008 before eventually receiving them in 2009.  In other words, your quote is entirely irrelevant to Phase II.

Here let me give you the sentence that came before what you quoted:
“The Dulles Rail line, a proposed 11.6-mile Metrorail extension in the Dulles Corridor from the existing West Falls Church Metrorail station through Tysons Corner to Reston at Wiehle Avenue, has become the subject of intense controversy.”  Does Phase II connect West Falls Church to Wiehle Ave?  Oops!

In regard to your other post, I never said I spoke to Frank Wolf.  I said “according” to him, in reference to an exact quote on his website.  Google “Phase 2 of the project is an 11.6 mile extension from Wiehle Avenue to Dulles Airport and on to Route 772 in Loudoun County.  There never has been an expectation of federal funding for Phase 2.”

Yes heavy rail is always subsidized, just like all of our roads, all of our schools, and nearly every other public works project in history.  So let’s never build anything ever again!

Lastly, the toll road is going to fund “about half” of the silver line costs, NOT 75% as you say.  Wrong again.  Google “Proposed Dulles Toll Road rates tied to Va. contribution to rail project”.  And the parking garages are going to be a private-public partnership, so no, wrong yet again.  We will NOT be building and paying for those alone.  And I know you’ll ignore it once more, but those will GENERATE REVENUE.  Judging by how Metro parking garages seem to be constantly full on weekdays, how do you figure these will be a huge burden to taxpayers?

And again, I ask for evidence of how this is going to bankrupt Loudoun.

@Crab meat only - Subpar analogies are the only way you know to make an argument?

Does anybody care about accuracy anymore?  Seriously, just one correct fact is all I’m asking for before you start mouthing off about how terrible this project is.

Why don’t you two get a room? Geez!

Lobster Claw = Tony Howard

Toney Howard = Tim Kaine’s Transportation Program

Tim Kaine’s Transportation Program = Debt, downgrades and higher taxes

Congrats Lobster.

FTA Administrator denied funding for phase 2 in a 2008 letter dated that said;

“In a January 24 letter, FTA Administrator James Simpson notified Virginia Governor Tim Kaine that the Dulles Rail project in its current form would receive an overall New Starts rating of “Medium-Low,” which would render it ineligible to advance into Final Design and receive federal assistance of up to $1.5 billion (a $900 million New Starts grant, plus a $375 million TIFIA loan and a $200 million line of credit to be used if needed).

Besides the project’s low cost-effectiveness, the letter also questioned the soundness of the capital financial plan and the management arrangements under which the project would be implemented. “I have serious concerns whether it would be appropriate to continue further investment of federal New Starts funds in this project,” Simpson’s letter concluded.

look at Dick Blacks letter there is enough info for the claw and the dude who has burnt a few too many. Jeese how many times in the blog post do people have to show that she is fukk of it. If you need help oh burned one give me a hoot.

Funny…as Lobster Claw calls people out, they are unable to return with referenced facts.  Keep at ‘em LC.  There are many in Loudoun that see the positive attributes of rail and desire growth/progress.  OOOOOOHHHH progress, bad word these days huh? hah

There are federal guidelines that you can ask Mr. Wolf about, since you have already spoken with him, why didn’t you ask him why the Fed money was for phase 1?  Yes, money was requested for phase 2 from the feds and it was denied.  And the feds have just cut metro subsidies out of this year’s federal budget… saying there were better places for the federal government to put its transit money.. heavy rail never pays for itself, and is always subsidized…

And the 4.9 percent you keep talking about is just of the shared construction costs for phase 2, not the parking garages that Loudoun will build alone, and also ... this is important… the Tolls from the Dulles Toll Road will pay for what Fairfax and Loudoun are not kicking in for the construction…  so 75% of phase 2 will be paid with by Tolls from the Dulles Toll Road… Loudouners will be paying there.

But even if we could cap the construction costs (which we can’t- they will not agree to fixed costs) there are all these unknowns like the deferred maintenance, the operation costs, etc… and we will pay a lot more than 4.9 percent, we are supposed to contribute based on a formula that divides the costs by our populations… we will pay based on rising costs and our rising population, so the $$S will just go up over time..

Even the County is saying it will cost Loudoun Billions, and we cannot afford what the County is projecting this may cost, especially with the 30 year lag to see the development come….

@oversold and under delivered - First, please provide your source about the criteria behind the decision for phase II to not get any funds.  I’m interested in reading more (specifically the density numbers).  I’m not saying it’s not true, but I’d like to read more in the overall context.

Second, according to Frank Wolf, there was never any expectation for funds for phase II.  Which to me says the entire Dulles Rail Project was being viewed as one project (which it is) that just happens to be split into two phases.  This idea conflicts with us being denied federal funds for phase II.

Additionally, what other heavy rail projects are currently under construction (or have been recently) and what is the total federal contribution compared to total costs?  You claim we are the only heavy rail project to not receive federal funding.  We need solid apples-to-apples comparisons if you’re so sure we’re getting screwed.  Although I would argue we are since phases 1 and 2 add up to one project.  The MWAA seems to view it the same way: “Federal contribution is 17.1%, which is based upon a fixed FTA grant for Phase 1 of $900M.”  If they look at the FTA grant as covering 17.1% of the entire project, why don’t you?  Just because it’s broken up into two phases doesn’t mean they’re different projects.  Otherwise they wouldn’t both be part of the “Dulles Corridor Metrorail Project”.  Do you see and “s” at the end of “Project”?  I don’t.

“we cannot afford this ourselves”...I know, that’s why we’re paying 4.9% of the project and other parties are paying 95.1% of it.  You’re just flat out wrong acting like we’re covering the whole thing.

And yet again, you bring up express buses.  The projections from December, show express bus infrastructure costing us virtually the identical amount as our contribution to rail.  Why would you choose to pay 100% for an inferior project when you could contribute 4.9% to a far better one?

Lastly, please show me your projections that show how this project will bankrupt the county.  You say that as if it’s fact.  Where are the numbers?

Lobster Claw,

When I cited the 600 people per square mile figure, I was citing the Federal Government’s figure for why we do not qualify for federal assistance to construct heavy rail in Loudoun, for phase 2.

The federal government paid completely for metro in DC, Arlington and Alexandria… contributed $900M to phase 1 ending in Reston, and they are contributing ZERO to phase 2 because their guidelines require a much higher density (more than ten times the density) for the feds to contribute to heavy rail, and even then, we would compete with other high density areas for those federal dollars. 

Again, we are the ONLY heavy rail project in the entire USA not to get any federal assistance… and we cannot afford this ourselves…

We already collect an additional 2% gas tax here in Loudoun for our transit projects, and it will all go to rail, we will have nothing to spend on lots of other critical road and transit problems…

Rail will end up costing us billions, and it solves nothing.  It will bankrupt us, for decades—even County staff says it will not start to show any real economic development which will make it break even for more than 30 years (and they only considered the construction costs, not the debt service, the $13 B deferred maintenance or the $100M annual operation “subsidy” the County will be required to contribute towards the operation of the entire corrupt and inept metro system…

The solution is Express busses throughout the county, with bus depots at the proposed Loudoun stations to take folks to the Route 28 station or to the Dulles Airport station, if they have their heart set on riding the 25 mph train that stops for 5 to 10 minutes at every stop along the way, and suffers from unreliable service with stations inexplicably closing, escalators not working, breaks not working (recent huge lawsuit) and union controlled for all repairs and construction…. must have an electrician at $88/hr change the light bulb…  please keep Loudoun out of this mess.

@oversold and under delivered - The population density in Ashburn (where the stations will be) is 3,200/sq mile!  Stop quoting the 600 figure for the entire county!  It’s irrelevant!  You talk out of both sides of your mouth.  On one hand, you complain that the rail line’s not worth it because it doesn’t go far into Loudoun.  On the other hand, you want to use the entire county for your density calculation.  Which is it?

You’ve ignored every point I’ve made and keep repeating the same 2-3 things over and over and over.  Public works projects aren’t supposed to entirely pay for themselves.  Again, I guess we should have never built the interstate highway system.  What a useless project that was since it cost a lot of money and didn’t pay for itself.

And, AGAIN, I guess every road in Loudoun is a failure since they didn’t pay for themselves.  The fact is Metro will at least pay for a significant portion of itself, which is more than I can say for anything else we’ve built in this county.  But you have zero appreciation for that.

Federal funds not going to phase 2 doesn’t make the project worthless.  I guess we should never build anything unless the feds kick in money?  Oh but wait, you probably complain about your federal tax rate too.

Lobster Claw, no heavy rail in the US pays for itself… look at AMTRAK.

The 7,000 people per square mile figure is what the fed government would require before they would consider subsidizing the construction of a new heavy rail project.  Since Loudoun does not have but 600 people per square feet (according to the feds) we did not qualify for any federal assistance for phase 2 of dulles rail.. The federal government gave MWAA $900 M for phase 1…

If we do not opt out, we will have to pay into phase 2, AND phase 1.  Keep ignoring those phase 1 costs….

Phase 2 is the only heavy rail project built in the US without federal assistance, and the whole justification is to take it to Dulles Airport, which is a federally owned airport.  The project is being paid for exclusively by Loudoun, Fairfax and Tolls from the Dulles Toll Road (75%.)  Managed by a non Virginia entity, MWAA, who is trying to force us to use MD and DC union contractors.. and they are blackmailing our Gen Assembly asking for $500 M or threatening to raise the tolls to outrageous numbers…

Where was Mr. Herring and Mrs. Howell when the 50 year toll period on the Dulles Toll Road ended, and it was supposed to be free, but instead was given by Gov Kaine to MWAA to raise tolls as they wished, with no accountability, meeting in secret, no audits, collecting billions in tolls and then blackmailing us for more, funneling money to their union cronies and contributors (look up how much money out of state unions gave to Herring and Howell)...

It is so incredibly corrupt, and awful… don’t know how anyone can defend these people with a straight face…

@Sweetand Peachyim - Like I said, I guess we should just stop building roads altogether then.  It’s just conjecture that anybody will use them, and it’s with 100% certainty that they don’t generate any revenue.  So I guess building roads is useless.

Why would a business want to move here?  I don’t know, maybe because we have an extraordinarily educated population?  Maybe because the land and office space is significantly cheaper than Fairfax?

All this “it’s just hypothetical” garbage is just that.  If we only ever undertook project that we knew with absolute certainty the outcome, we would never do anything.  We’d all just be living in shacks out in the woods.

Here is the map of the stations for the proposed Phase 2 Dulles Rail to Loudoun.. anyone reading here can easily see that a station at Rte 28 and a station at the airport that requires Loudoun to pay NOTHING as opposed to billions for the 606 and Ryan Rd stops makes a lot more financial sense.

We have the right of way purchased, that is a big expense.  WE can build rail any time… we are too rural, we cannot afford it now, and even the County staff says there will be at least a 30 year lag before we will stop losing money on this deal (and they forgot to include debt service, the deferred maintenance of $13+ Billion, and the annual operations subsidy that is TBD and will be imposed on us, expected to be around $100M each year, going up each year, FOREVER…. paid to a corrupt union controlled inept unelected WMATA who runs metro… no thanks… escalators don’t work, stops shut down, malfeasance in latest construction projects, and they want to charge us $350-$500M too much just for the construction…)

Anyone FOR metro is not thinking about the overall health of Loudoun County… rail to the airport is good enough..

map:
http://www.dullesmetro.com/pdfs/Route Map_SilverLine.pdf

Is it just monkeys or all animals your willing to be cruel to? Why would a business want to move here? ?Because they like our tax structure,you can see the future since your telling us that business will move here. So look into that chrystal ball of yours and tell me it’s not pure conjecture on your part? Do you still have your witches union card?

@oversold and under delivered - Also, I call BS on your claim of 2.5 miles.  Map the location of the Route 772 station to the airport main terminal (which is what the airport station will be near).  How far is that?  MORE LIKE 7 MILES, NOT 2.5.

@Peachim - Ha!  A new dummy?  Do you really want to start talking about intelligence?  Judging by the fact that your posts have zero substance and your central theme seems to be torture, having an intellectual debate with a monkey might be more your speed.

@oversold and under delivered - Again, you keep twisting the facts to your argument.  The difference between us having that 2.5 miles of rail or not having it is that it would actually be in our county.  If it’s in our county, businesses that locate near the stations will contribute to OUR tax base.  How are we going to lure businesses when they can just move 2.5 miles further east and be near stations for their employees and PAY FAIRFAX TAXES INSTEAD?  Not having that 2.5 miles will make us significantly less competitive when we’re trying to lure businesses.  You can repeat “only 2.5 miles” all you want, but you’re ONLY looking at the commuting part of the equation, not the business part of it.

Show me where buses will cost one tenth?  All the estimates I saw (widely publicized in December, including in this paper) said rapid transit bus would cost the same since we would have to foot 100% of the bill, instead of just a small portion of the Metro.

And while I know you’ll ignore my facts once again, but you keep complaining that Metro won’t pay for itself.  So tell me, if transit projects need to completely pay for themselves, then why do we build any roads at all in this county?  Why don’t we have tolls on all of them?

Again and again, you ONLY look at the costs for Metro and fail to accept that it creates revenue.  Somebody earlier quoted a stat that said we need a 7,000/sq mile population density for Metro to COMPLETELY pay for itself.  We’re already around half of that, and it is with 100% certainty we can say that’s going to increase judging by the empty land next to the stations and the high-density developments already under construction.  I we can get to 2/3 of that density (very realistic), then all of the sudden Metro’s not quite as much of an albatross around our neck since it’s actually covering some of its own costs.

So please tell me why you’re so insistant that paying for roads, with a -100% return on investment, is a more worthwhile use of money than building a mass transit project that will cover a large portion of its own costs with the money it will collect?

If you add up the fares Metro will collect, plus additional business tax dollars from even a couple companies relocating here in Loudoun, it’s nowhere near as expensive as you keep saying.

But clearly you have your opinion, and you’re probably just going to keep spouting off about how “it’s just 2.5 miles!” like that’s a substantive argument.

Lobster claw I am looking for a new dummy to work the kinks out of my water boarding technique and you seem to be quailified? Just plain No to the rail. Read the above messages and if they don’t change your mind maybe you could be a canidate for my electric shock therapy appartus that I am working on!

common sense?  they want to put ALL of our transit dollars for the next 30 years into metro… 2.5 miles of metro….

We could spend a tenth of the money and have express busses serve the ENTIRE county.

Billions on metro, with no solution,,,just money out the door—a lot of money… or spend less and fix our roads, complete things like Loudoun County Parkway, and have a really good rapid/express bus system?

Choice seems obvious, especially since they will build the metro to Dulles and Rt 28 without Loudoun having to pay a dime… or join WMATA/MWAA….

@Commom: I see your point, but it’s starting to read like tax-payers could be on the hook for billions indefinitely for a dubious public works project; for that much it should almost walk on water.  The bus system is at least a variable, flexible one that doesn’t burden non-users to the extent of metro, and can easily be modified as transportation needs change.

I used to be a huge supporter of metro expansion, and I still see expansion to Dulles rather worthwhile; but beyond that, no (and I grew up in NYC area).

Right wing freak,
Does the bus not also require you to drive from your door to the bus station, and then get from the drop off point to the office? Just like a METRO train would?? Yes, there are bus stations/pickups in P’ville and the like, whereas the Silver Line will begin/end in Ashburn…but WHO THE HECK ever said the Silver line was supposed to the be the single answer to every commute??? No freakin body.  Only you gosh darn detractors who makes this cr&p up as b&llsh;#t examples of why you don’t think it should be built.

Metro is a PART of the total transportation system for a region of several million people, hundreds of thousands of which live in the northwesterly direction of the Beltway in Loudoun Northern Ffx, Clarke, and beyond in W. Va. and Maryland. All of which come through Loudoun at some point moving east in the mornings to go to work.

So let’s be honest at least about what Metro is and will be. A part.

Stupid is as stupid does.

If LoCo funds this idiocy, we will pay for generations. Why do we should we tilt nipple to Fairfax County and MWAA? If they want it so badly, let them pay for it! Enough with this public extortion in the press. One of our Supervisors need to get on record and tell them to piss right off!  Still haven’t heard a rational argument as to why we need this? The data is ########.

Northern Virginia is so full of hubris-filled ######## - from the school system, to mass-transit issues, to zoning issues. It doesn’t matter. If my job didn’t force me to be here, I would have gladly stayed in Central Virginia where the “downstaters” don’t give one rat’s ass about what happens North of Fredricksburg and East of Warrenton. And they sure as hell aren’t going to pay for any of the nonsense that happens here. Not a chance.

Thank God for my wonderful neighbors. It’s what keeps me grounded and satisfied.

See the link below:

Dick Black has sent a letter to our BoS saying metro is showing itself to be prohibitive financially, especially with MWAA’s ploys to force phase 2 (built entirely in Virginia, with only Virginia money) to be built with out of state union labor (from DC and MD).  Virginia is a Right to Work state and our contractors are not unionized.

http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/senator-black-urges-loudoun-board-against-metro-phase-2/

Metro is great if you’re lucky to have door-to-door service.  But if you have to drive 10-15 miles just to get to a station, pay for parking, wait for a train and then ride for an hour, doesn’t sound like a worthwhile investment - sounds like an absolutely horrible commute.  I’ve never had a long commute, but the bus system seems to work quite well from what I hear from friends.

Examiner Local Editorial: Gaping holes found in Dulles Rail revenue projections

Examiner Editorial

“Plenty of Room for Error,” a new study released by the Reston Citizens Association, demolishes the shaky financial footings of Dulles Rail Phase II and vindicates The Washington Examiner’s repeated warnings that this $3 billion-plus mass transit project is not financially viable. The 81-page analysis by RCA board member and retired federal economist Terry Maynard eviscerates the toll and revenue forecasts prepared for the Metrorail extension to Washington Dulles International Airport by Wilbur Smith Associates Inc. The key problem lies in how much revenue to expect from the Dulles Toll Road, funding without which the rail project simply cannot continue.

Maynard cites data from two national studies showing that the transportation consulting firm’s “optimism bias”—and its consistent use of the highest population and employment figures available—caused it to overestimate toll revenues for 12 projects by an average of 127 percent—more than double the actual revenue collected. Four toll roads experienced shortfalls within the first two years, causing major losses for owners and bondholders. Two even had to file for bankruptcy when the actual revenue proved insufficient to pay their debt service.

As RCA President Colin Mills said in a cover letter to federal, state and local officials, “WSA’s work in its two studies of the Dulles Toll Road so far show the same disturbing trends,” including “overestimating 2010 Fairfax employment by 25 percent in 2005 and 52 percent in 2009” when compared with 2010 census data. The pattern, he said, “suggests a substantial risk in proceeding with the Metrorail line’s current financial plan”—which depends on tolls collected on the DTR for 75 percent of Phase II funding.

If WSA’s updated revenue projections for Dulles Rail are as wildly inaccurate as they have been elsewhere in the past, Maynard warns that DTR tolls (now scheduled to rise to $4.50 one-way next year) would have to double. Mills added that the total cost of the Silver Line “will likely run to more than $14 billion in debt servicing and other obligations over the coming decades.”

The RCA study is particularly significant because the association has consistently supported Dulles Rail. That fact makes the Maynard study’s call for an independent second opinion before any final decisions on Phase II are made doubly important. As the RCA correctly points out, the risks of proceeding without accurate revenue estimates include depressed economic growth in the Dulles Corridor, increased traffic congestion on local roads, major debt restructuring and possible default. The Maynard study is a waving red flag that federal, state and local officials ignore at their constituents’ peril.

“Cuccinelli, and others in opposition, claim the Phase II area will be just as well, or better, served by metro buses.”

Moron.

Lobster, since the construction costs are so clear, then why can’t we get a capped amount in our agreement… (ha ha, what a joke, fixed prices?)

No rail project in the history of the nation came in near the original estimate.. Look at the article about Silver Spring, one station was supposed to cost $75 M, its not finished and already costs $100M and now because of the poor construction they are saying it will NEVER open…. this is the mismanagement and disrespect we want to buy into?

How about all Loudoun taxpayers pay for a capped amount for the construction at the figure you have given us, and then the debt service, operation and maintenance costs, and Dulles Tolls over the current amount,  be paid by a tax district, for those whose properties benefit from Rail (the 1 percent.) 

Fairfax County created a tax district where owners near by planned metro stops had to pay in at the onset and pay yearly. Why not in Loudoun? make it “fair” and make those who will benefit by hundreds of millions equalize it for the average taxpayer and commuter who will not be using rail.

Then, if someone not in the tax district wants to ride metro, then everyone not in the tax district will pay a higher fee to ride metro.  People in the tax district can get a special pass… the regular rate.

We already know Loudoun will have to contribute towards all the deferred maintenance as part of the deal, based on our population, we just do not know exactly how much… because the numbers are foggy and contradictory, not tied down, only optimistic estimates which are in the Billions ($13+Billion)...no one has a clue how to pay for the deferred maintenance, except to say the federal government is going to come through somehow (when they just cut metro’s operating subsidy for this year)—

And the tax district can also pay the operating subsidy to WMATA and the debt service and yes the TOLLs that will supposedly pay for 75% of this, raising the Dulles toll road tolls to more than $10 each way, some projected to $17 each way…

If its such a good deal, then the landowners who stand to benefit should be willing to pay to make it happen…

It is only common sense that when the tolls go that high, and all the traffic dumps out on 7, no one will move to Ashburn, no one will want to buy there… great plan to destroy Loudoun… the average income in Loudoun is less than $100,000—those people cannot afford to pay thousands more in tolls and property taxes, for something that gives them no benefit…thankfully our Governor cares and will not let MWAA do this to Loudoun, hopefully our BoS also cares… although looking at the contributions to some, wonder if they can represent the people or of they will be representing their big donors?

@oversold and under delivered - Are you trying to set a record for how many times you can accuse me of being a “shill”?  Name-calling is a great way to make an argument.  Yes, I’m a shill.  I’m going to subdivide my whopping sub-1/4 acre lot so I can build a massive condo development for squirrels.  Why would developers pay someone to comment in a discussion thread?  Don’t flatter yourself.  They know the BOS are the people’s opinions that actually matter.

For those who keep harping on about bus, did you not see the article in this paper in December? “Loudoun’s share of the $2.82 billion project costs is currently about $275 million.  It would then costs an estimated $270 to $315 million to construct two bus rapid transit stations in Loudoun County.”  Awesome.  Let’s spend the same amount on buses for a second-rate solution!

And show me some evidence of how Loudoun is responsible for these “billions” in deferred maintenance for metro?  That’s BS.  Our obligation would be the 4.9% to get it built (under $300 mil), then the two parking garages (also revenue-generating).  Of course there will be some costs for maintenance.  But magically we’re going to be on the hook for “billions” in deferred maintenance after that FOR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM? ;-)  Riiiiiight.

The MWAA is not offering a 10% bonus to hire union labor.  They’re offering a 10% bonus in the SCORING for how they pick a contractor.  Two entirely different things.  And honestly, non-union contractors should have no trouble coming in significantly below union contractor costs.

@Peachyim - “The supervisors who vote for this should be water-boarded”...wow, you’re a gem of a human being.

Seems to me there are a lot of bitter people on here from the western part of the county who are upset that Ashburn has grown so much and that they’re starting to become outnumbered.  Sorry, but that’s progress folks.

Cut spending pay off the debt and balance the budget. The supervisors who vote for this should be water-boarded, impeach any who do or at the least vote them out of office.

“The metro will be a welcome site for those living in the eastern part of the County, can’t wait!!!”

No. it will not be for all of us. Not this way, not at this price. I’d rather buy a Hummer and sit in traffic every day than to have this albatross around my tax-paying neck. Let it go to the airport and be done with it.

For students of history, take a look at what happened in Chicago when they brought rail to the airport. It is underutilized by about 40% of projection. It’s faster to take a cab most of the time…albeit, not cheaper.

I think it’s time to can this project. Even the Gov’s office knows this project stinks so badly, they can smell it in Richmond and points South. Now MWAA is offering a 10 percent bonus to hire union labor! Really? In a right to work state? Which prompted the legislature to pass a bill banning any state funding for projects that require union labor. Nice job, boys and girls. This thing will never get done.

Gas prices are on the rise again, it would be nice to be less dependent on foreign oil.  We definitely need the metro -  to the airport would be great!

So who is doing the PR work for Metro?  Looks like they’re busy here at the LTM.

Also Lobster Claw, Loudoun taxpayers “only” have to pay 4.9 percent of the shared Construction costs but hundreds of millions for the parking decks were taken out of the total shared costs of phase 2 and pushed onto Loudoun, who agreed to pay for building them, alone.  Typical MWAA trick, then they announce that the cost of the project has been decreased (only the reality is they cut nothing out, just shoved some of the project onto Loudoun County to bear alone.)

Also, you leave out all the other costs, including the BILLIONS in deferred maintenance.  MWAA is paying nothing. 

And significantly, you leave out MWAA is planning on paying for 75% of the construction costs by raising the Dulles Toll Road tolls to more than $10 each way… not only dramatically increasing Loudoun’s commuting costs, but also sending a lot of traffic that cannot afford these ridiculous tolls onto the local network… the developers like to ignore this cost to Loudoun and only concentrate on manipulating the shared construction costs down (by pretending they have lowered them when they really just divided them up and shoved them on the locality..)  Trying really hard to make this sound inexpensive by just not reporting all the costs to Loudoun,  Wrong.

Lobster Claw=Developer Shill.

Mr. Claw,
Very dominant sounding name you have. You won’t bite me if I disagree with your liberal nonsense I hope.
There are dreamers and planners. We need our elected officials to act as planners. We did not just elect 9 supervisors who promised fiscal responsibility to sell us out by pumping money into risky infrastructure speculation.
The project if decide on its merits fails miserably. We must evaluate Loudoun’s competing financial priorities and make big purchases when the money is there and not before.
Loudoun is $1.4 billion in debt. That is way too much. We have been warned that our credit rating is going to be downgraded. People have been promised that our record high taxes will not go up. We are still building schools to catch up with the surge in population.
You Mr. Claw sound like the people of Greece who cannot learn to accept no for an answer. Billions for Metro to Loudoun is attractive to a few people who want a subsidized ride to work. For the rest of the County it will be a ball and chain FOREVER.
Loudoun please opt out and pay NOTHING.

If you must sidsize something, go with buses. They realy work for a fraction of the cost.

Haha, yeah I bet Lobster Claw “lives” close to the proposed metro stations in Loudoun, he might even own some of the land near the stations!  Sounds like a developer shill to me…

Why should Loudoun County taxpayers pay for a rail line to Dulles Airport?  the airport is federally owned, but the federal government does not even think it is worthy enough of a project to spend the money on it now. Phase 2 to the airport does not meet federal standards for cost/benefit so Phase 2 does not qualify for federal money to help with the construction costs, and now the Obama administration has cut out the federal subsidy to metro for operating costs…

And why should Loudoun County taxpayers pay for deferred maintenance for the entire poorly managed and old metro system (only 13 Billion needed for new escalators, breaks and trains…) or the annual subsidy for regular operation (that seems to be the huge mystery number no one wants to talk about…)

This is a terrible deal for Loudoun, we have the opportunity to opt out and not have to pay for phase 1 or for phase 2, and the rail will come to Route 28 on the Fairfax County line and then to the Airport anyway… that is close enough… we do not want to be part of the corrupt union controlled MWAA or WMATA…

Read the article a couple of comments down.. the Silver Spring metro center was supposed to be finished last year, and now it may not even open because of all the problems, wrong kind of concrete… AND it ran way over budget!  we do not want to do business with these folks, they will simply take our money…

@brett phillips - “Seems to me those who oppose Phase 2 recite specific numbers related to the cost of being sucked into the Metro morass, and those to support the project talk about offsetting future revenues to be generated by private sector development for which the project would allegedly be a magnet. The first is a calculation, the second an hypothesis.”

You mean like how the benefits of every public works project in the history of this country are just “hypotheses”?  We should have definitely never built the interstate highway system then, since the vast majority of it is toll-free.  And, in fact, we should definitely never build another road in Loudoun unless there’s a toll attached, because the ROI of virtually every road we build in this county is -100% and many in western Loudoun are probably only ever used by 1-2% of the population.  Why hold roads to a different standard than rail?

I guess nobody should ever start a business in this country again either, since all sales are just hypothetical.

@Independent - “the federal government says that you need 7000 residents per square mile to make metro fares feasibly pay for metro… we have 600 people per square mile in Loudoun”.

If the federal government says we need 7,000 to make fares completely pay for metro, then of course we’re short of that.  However, you can’t use the density of the entire county for comparison.  In Ashburn, our density is over 3,200/square mile.  Of course that’s far short of 7,000, but we still have massive amounts of undeveloped land in Ashburn and the developments going in immediately next to rail are extremely high density condos.  I’m not saying we’ll ever hit 7,000, but it’s completely feasible that we won’t be that far from it.  And if we get even remotely close to fares paying for metro, it doesn’t sound quite as overwhelmingly expensive anymore.

@WMATA = Cancer on Budgets - “Montgomery, Fairfax and Alexandria would love nothing more than if Loudoun signed up to overpay for 2.5 miles of track and a station at Dulles that should be 100% paid for by MWAA.”

Why should MWAA pay 100% of a project that benefits the localities in which it is built?  We’re getting 2 of 11 of the new stations (18% of the new stations) but have to pay 4.9% of the total cost.  How is that unreasonable?

Don’t tie our budget to the perennially inefficient and incompetent WMATA, and the out of touch MWAA.  Arguing about PLA’s and such is missing the point.  WMATA is a cancer.  A terribly run organization that won’t exactly listen to Scott York once we opt-in.  Someone suggested we can help “fix” Metro?  Hahaha.  Did you just move here?  Metro needs to be blown up before it can be fixed, and that will never happen. 

I’d actually have less problems with this if I were paying for a Virginia commuter rail, to be managed by Virginia . 

Only a fool would look at the current state of Metro (and the last 20 years of Metro’s performance) and decide to commit millions of dollars in order to sign up to help support this cancer of an agency.

Loudoun Rail’s advocates are only real estate developers (guess I better not bother writing to Randy Minchew) and the current counties that pay for Metro who want to tap a new keg of money.  Montgomery, Fairfax and Alexandria would love nothing more than if Loudoun signed up to overpay for 2.5 miles of track and a station at Dulles that should be 100% paid for by MWAA.  People like Scott York are out of their league when it comes to dealing with MWAA and WMATA.

Loudoun is being sold out by our pols to the developers and their fellow pols in Fairfax who need some help. 

Don’t like commuting from Loudoun?  Move.  You knew what you signed up for.  Ashburn isn’t close to DC.  Surprise!

Take the existing bus service.  Free parking.  Cheaper fares per mile than Metro currently offers, never mind once they build it out to Dulles.  Only like 5 stops too instead of the 20 it will take to go from Dulles to downtown DC via Metro.

Silver Spring metro transit center has had so many problems, it may not open… is this the kind of mismanagement we can look forward to?

“The Silver Spring transit center was intended to link Metro, MARC, Ride On, taxis and intercity buses into a single site. It was supposed to cost $75 million and open last year. It is now 33 percent over budget and may never open. Despite spending more than $100 million, the project that has fundamental flaws — not least of which is that the concrete was poured wrong and it was not built to code.

Adding insult to transit injury was the quietly released news that Purple Line light rail will require the state to take significantly more properties — hundreds — not the dozens projected…

And one can only imagine what the real cost will be for the other transit money pit — Baltimore’s proposed Red Line. A quarter of the 14-mile path from Security Boulevard to Hopkins Bayview requires tunnels under the city. A review of Boston’s “Big Dig,” which ballooned from $2 billion to $16 billion, would be instructive.

Transit projects are routinely oversold and under-delivered.

Twenty years ago, the existing light rail from Glen Burnie to Hunt Valley was sold as cost effective because it would run on existing rail rights of way. Still, the cost to build it doubled from its advertised $360 billion to more than $700 billion.

The Glen Burnie to Hunt Valley light rail is an annual money loser, too. Although it is required by law to get 50 percent of its operating revenue from the fare box, it brings in less than 30 percent. The legislature routinely ignores its own mandate. And the ridership numbers are inflated by the fact that state employees ride light rail for free.”

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/opn/2012/02/21-33/Right-Stuff-The-3-billion-transit-boondoggle.html

Many have asked for an independent cost benefit study, independent review of the revenue/tolls study and independent review of the level of ridership projected.  Great idea to ask George Mason to do just that.

Some of have also asked for this Board to take the issues out into the community so everyone can ask questions.  We need to make a decision if we will go forward soon.  I think we should Opt Out (we can always opt back in) and study the issue, take it out to the community in public education/community input sessions. 

It is such a big decision, binding us forever, into a very expensive proposition…

Just FYI, the federal government says that you need 7000 residents per square mile to make metro fares feasibly pay for metro… we have 600 people per square mile in Loudoun, and this station will put tremendous residential pressure on eastern Loudoun. Do we really want eastern Loudoun to look like Tysons, or DC, or New York City?  We need a lot of both residential and commercial development to make this pay for itself, and even the County’s own planners and economists say that there is a development lag and it will at this point take a minimum of 30 years until we stop losing (lots of) money every year…

nice job breet! that’s a study worth doing unlike some of Michews stuff.

Good debate, guys. Seems to me those who oppose Phase 2 recite specific numbers related to the cost of being sucked into the Metro morass, and those to support the project talk about offsetting future revenues to be generated by private sector development for which the project would allegedly be a magnet. The first is a calculation, the second an hypothesis. One thing I wonder about is whether anybody has commissioned the economists at George Mason University, who have excellent reputations for such things, to study what will happen to the rate of Northern Virginia commercial development when defense, homeland security and myriad other federal budgets are slashed by billions of dollars over the next few years. My guess is that the existing Class A office space within the Phase 1 corridor and in Eastern Loudoun will be more than ample for the next three decades. But my guess is worth exactly what you paid for it. Why not get that study done in order to put this entire debate into a better context?

Instead of Metrorail, why don’t we re-build the W&OD; tracks all the way to Winchester and run a REAL train to WDC?

Independant says it all.

@burndude,

Express busses are much better, and even Montgomery County is saying heavy rail expansion is not cost effective and they are implementing express busses, a more flexible, reliable system… the new busses have Wifi… people really love them, and they pick up near houses, so a lot less driving… we need more bus stations/depots…

Route 28 could easily become a transportation hub.  Most folks would rather use a limo/taxi than the subway from the metro… look at the taxis in NYC… rail is not a silver bullet to solve our problems but in fact will make our problems much worse, we will not have the money to do what we need to do in other areas, roads, schools, and it will do very little to remedy congestion, especially if it depends on raising the tolls for 75% of the cost of phase 2…

@Potholes:

Express busses are MUCH faster than rail.  Look at all the MWAA data, to ride from Dulles to the Pentagon will take an hour and a half… driving is much faster and cheaper, and busses are even more fast and cheap. 

Build bus stations not metro stations.  Let metro go to the airport, that is close enough.  Do not bind us to MWAA or WMATA, corrupt unelected and unaccountable, not subject to Virginia’s constitution (according to them), no open meetings (all secret dealings), no FOIA, no audits (and now way to track the money…)

@burndude, prices are double for some features and triple for others compared to national averages… and about 30 percent more than recent heavy rail built in Fairfield Conn, and NYC….

for example will it cost $235 million to build five parking decks containing 8,900 parking spaces, an average of $26,000 per space? That’s nearly twice the national average cost of $15,500 per space — even higher than the $20,000 cost per space in New York City!

A metro station recently completed in Fairfield, Conn., not exactly a location with a low cost of doing business, cost $43.7 million — after cost overruns. Why will the comparable Rt. 28 station cost $83 million?

Bruhns suggests that Virginians could be paying $350 million more than necessary just to build parking garages and Metro stations.

http://www.baconsrebellion.com/2012/02/citizens-asking-questions-the-media-wont.html

@blueridge - i grew up in PG…near New Carrollton.  i remember when rail opened there in the late 70s.  Bottom line, PG has bigger problems that keep the commercial development from arriving, and much of that revolves around education levels and average income. it’s a demographic study that most businesses will do, and ultimately opt to go where the better stats are.  Loudoun holds much of that ammo.

@burndude:

citations and facts are at LoudounOptOut.org

Plenty of commercial development planned around stations in PG County—never materialized.  Even the Rockville Pike station, really looks the same as the day it was built, some single family, but none of the big business they hoped to draw…

We are being asked to bail out Metro, next we will be asked to bail out these projects with their rosy predictions…..

And we still need to spend hundreds of millions on roads just to complete critical roads that have not been finished (Loudoun County Parkway) or need to be built to make metro work.  Fairfax County estimates it will spend $40 Billion on roads/sidewalks around Tysons, to make the Tysons station workable…

Huge waste of money! It doesn’t work when you live this far out. I know for a fact that Loudoun has lost out on some big “name” corporate relocations, not because there is no Metro, but simply that Loudoun is just too far from DC. Not everyone cares that Dulles has Metro connecting it to DC. No one I know is going to pop off a plane from the West Coast or Europe and then schlep their bags onto a subway for another 45 minutes to DC. Has anyone estimated how long it would take to go from the Loudoun end of Metro into DC? I must be nearly an hour! Who is going to sit on a Metro train for an hour..and what must the cost be? Going from Shady Grove to DC is hard enough, let alone Loudoun. Use the money to get high speed buses and be done with it. The only morons who want Metro in Loudoun are those who will benefit from it.Developers, landowners etc.

@blueridge - can you cite some sources? how can the dulles rail be double AND triple the average cost? were all stations in maryland intended for commercial development?  what were the original plans?  when did the obama administration do their cost benefit analysis and determine specifically that the ridership would be low?  i’m not saying i don’t believe you…not at all in fact. i just want to read more.

Rail should have been here years ago, to Dulles at least. Many in Western Loudoun are just against anything that might indicate progress, rather than regress. Cars with single drivers, wasteful; Buses, better but not fast; Bikes, terrific if you have lanes and showers; Rail, efficient with additional funding.

We get no federal money for Phase 2.  Dulles Toll Road tolls are proposed to pay for 75% of the construction costs of phase 2, and then Loudoun and Fairfax pay the rest.  If you exclude phase 2 and phase 1 of dulles rail, the feds paid for 100 percent of heavy rail.  The feds paid 900 million for phase 1, but zero for phase 2.  Obama specifically declined to pay anything for phase 2 because the population is not dense enough, the ridership will not pay as it is too low, and the costs were too high.. 

Loudoun is being asked to pay for the construction of both phase 1 and phase 2, and then Loudoun is supposed to join WMATA and bow down to the union controlled unelected WMATAT and MWAA and fork over our tax money to fix the entire metro system, which has been badly neglected to the tune of at least 13 Billion… and sign on to pay a fixed percentage of unknown future ordinary operational costs..

We are not nearly as wealthy as Fairfax and cannot afford this without the federal help that they got.  We are still 2/3 a rural county—and this puts a huge burden on the residential tax payers of Loudoun.

People who live near the planned metro will only be two miles from metro if it is not extended into Loudoun, so please stop expecting the rest of us to pay for you to walk to metro… at any cost? 

Look at the numbers, we have been fighting over an 5 Million dollar substation that western Loudoun thinks is excessive… and the interest alone supposedly is $400,000 a year just on 5 M… 

If we borrow $300 Million, for some of the construction costs (not including the parking decks which will also cost hundreds of millions that we will be required to build but might be able to get landowners to pay for)—the interest is presumed to be about 18 Million a year for 30 years, plus we will have to pay about $100 Million a year to start (increasing each year) for ordinary operation costs to WMATA forever, plus we will have to pay an unknown amount for the unfunded deferred maintenance which is around $13 BILLION according to the most conservative estimates of the costs through 2020…

if $7 Million equals 1 cent on the tax rate, we are talking about 35 cents more per $100 just for construction (not including the required parking decks that will cost hundreds of millions) and operation costs each year for the near future. 

This 35 cents does not include paying for the deferred maintenance that is required now through 2020… right now we supposed to pay a percentage of the total cost based on our total population compared to the other funding jurisdictions…it could be 20 percent of the total cost, which would be nearly 3 Billion just for Loudoun… divided by 10 years is $300 million a year?  Which is another 50 cents per $100 on the tax rate… that would put us to $2.10 tax rate…  How can we afford this? 

MWAA says the federal government will subsidize the maintenance, but the federal government just cut MWAA and WMATA’s operating costs our of this years budget.. saying other investments in other transit made more sense…so how can Loudoun afford this risk?

Not to mention that they are not officially projecting that the tolls on the toll road are necessary to pay for 75% of phase 2, and the tolls will rise to more than $10 each way… pushing traffic onto our local network.

This is a financing mess, we cannot afford it, and should opt out and let it be built to Dulles Airport… close enough for Loudoun.

Saying Virginia is paying for this without any help from the federal government is a matter of semantics.  While technically the feds aren’t paying for any of phase II, what percentage of rides from the phase II stations do you think will ultimately end up on the phase I set of tracks?  $900 million of federal funds were contributed to phase I, which if you’re looking at the project as a whole, make up about a third of the total cost.  We’re not paying for phase II just so we can ride back-and-forth across the phase II tracks.  We’re paying to be linked to the rest of the system, which has been payed for by others.  As long as we can continue to manage this whole PLA nonsense to keep costs down, I don’t see how 4.8% of the total project costs coming from Loudoun is unreasonable.  Even though it’s a two-phase build-out, it essentially needs to be viewed as what it really is, one project.  Don’t get me wrong, of course we all want more federal money.  But it’s misleading to act like that $900 million doesn’t directly benefit riders at the phase II stations.

Even Pro Rail legislators are beginning to see that MWAA is not worth it… Tim Hugo has a recent press release about the preference MWAA just announced for UNION labor in the construction of phase 2 of Dulles Rail, that will end up costing Virginia $350-500 million more…. Ridiculous, Virginia is paying for this without any help from the federal government, DC or MD, but DC and MD dictate who gets the contracts, and it will be union contractors from their jurisdictions…

Say no to this bloated overpriced corrupt project, to these Union thugs and crooks, to MD and DC, and to MWAA and WMATA who must think we are a bunch of dumb hicks and will just nod our heads at their fancy arrogance and big spending… and close our eyes while we open our wallets… we did not get to be the richest county in the USA by being stupid…

@Blue Ridge Voter - Of course crime goes up within 1 mile of Metro.  Density increases.  There’s a good chance people using Metro will commit more crimes than the gophers that currently reside around the planned stops, so I suspect we’ll see an increase too.  But why can’t you acknowledge that communities that were safe before stations came in tend to still be safe now?  Why can’t you admit that Arlington has seen huge drops in crime in recent years?  Clearly Metro doesn’t make communities as a whole unsafe.  The facts of the matter is that the communities I listed below (in addition to many others) are significantly safer than the U.S. average.  If you’re going to cherry pick anecdotal evidence to support your belief, then we might as well say that Lansdowne is dangerous due to the murders a couple of years back.

Show me the data about how our tax rates will go to $2.  You’re using hyperbole and I haven’t seen a single piece of data from you that clearly shows that will occur.

I’m also glad that you speak for all of Brambleton.  It’s good to know that you’re their official spokesperson and nobody there wants Metro.

Yes, we might as well just scrap the whole project because technically I could bike from here to the Vienna Station.  All I said is that I (and many of my neighbors) would appreciate the benefit of being within a few minutes of a station.  How is me being able to bike to 28 or around the airport relevant?  Technically I could just bike straight into DC as well.  What does that have to do with anything?  I was simply refuting your accusations that I’m a lobbyist.  You’re starting to argue like a child.

I know you’re set in your opinion, so clearly you can’t be swayed to see any other points-of-view.  Go ahead, you’re welcome to the last word (because I know you wouldn’t have it any other way)

Why did Herring and Howell vote against a bill allowing non-union construction workers work on the project?  Most of the construction jobs currently go to Maryland and DC - but this is paid for by Virginia’s taxpayers.  Why don’t they care about Virginia’s jobs?

Crime around ststions is not a myth. I’ve heard many before and after stories from people who have witnessed the increase.

Improved property values is a myth. They may improve at a small percentage better than the county overall withn walking distance to a station, but no where near enough to offset the loss due in value attributable to much higher tax rates, added traffic congestion, crime, and added cost of the commute for non-Metro riders.

Go ahead and take the bait. Metro is all Pay’in no Gain….Loudoun’s new BALL and CHAIN

Sink me, I’m a poet…and I did not know it.

Statistics are clear that crime increases dramatically in the area 1 mile of metro.  Apparently you would rather ignore the number of serious crime events in Arlington, Friendship Heights, etc. all due to metro… the cost of doing business and living close to metro is CRIME.

Even so, how happy will you be when our property tax is raised to more than $2 (highest in Fairfax County was around $1.70)—so your taxes will increase tremendously… and all of our taxes will increase tremendously, so you can walk to metro?  You are part of the 1 percent of Loudoun residents who are predicted to use metro…  we put all of our transit money into this, things like Loudoun County Parkway won’t get finished…

The folks in Brambleton are happy with their express bus service, and will not be happy to have that go away because rail will now be there for them, at a higher cost, and taking twice as long to get them to work…

Lobster Claw,

If you are close enough to ride your bike to the planned metro in Loudoun, then you are close enough to ride your bike to the metro at Dulles Airport on federal land, or around the airport to the 28 station.. 

Heck, the 606 station in Loudoun is adjacent to Dulles Airport land. How about we build you a bike trail, and you bike straight to the station.  That would save us all BILLIONS. 

And for those who know that Loudoun’s current busses (not part of WMATA) are more efficient, pay for themselves, cost 1/10th of metro, get you where you want to go more reliably and faster, and don’t bind us to a corrupt and unaccountable MWAA/WMATA compact —just build bus stations where metro is currently planned in Loudoun, and take the Loudoun express bus at 55-65 mph instead of the train at 25 mph, stopping for ten minutes at every station…

Loudoun Busses have wi-fi and are very comfortable… we need more of them, not this boondoggle rail that will serve a very limited few… driven by corrupt UNION money…

@Blue Ridge Voter - Yes, just because someone has a different opinion than you they clearly must be a lobbyist or stand to profit personally.  You are wrong on both counts.  I am an individual citizen with no vested interest in rail coming here other than the fact that I love close to a planned station and will benefit from being able to actually use it.  I AM A REGULAR CITIZEN.  And many other “regular citizens” have similar opinions.

The Metro enables crime argument is bogus.  Yea, I always here about how Vienna and Arlington are hotbeds of crime.  You practically can’t leave your house in Bethesda at night for fear of being robbed or shot! (sarcasm is tough in written form, but you get the point)

Well, WMATA pays its union bus drivers $100,000 + year with ridiculous benefits, weeks of vacation, etc…

Next our bus drivers will be threatening us that they need the same pay .... union demands will break this County… we are a Right To Work State and do not need to be held hostage to all of these unions—who by the way were huge supporters of all the dem candidates for the BOS and huge supporters of Herring and Janet Howell and all the other Democrats elected to our general assembly from Northern Virginia… out of state unions are buying our elected officials and hoping to pick our pockets big time…

Check out donations from unions to Virginia elected officials at vpap.org

@RR - Completely agree.  I am sympathetic to folks in the western portion of the county who have seen things change so much.  Yet on the other hand, times change, and Loudoun is vastly different than it was 20 (even 10) years ago.  Luckily most in the western part of the county have seen their property values increase over the years so can always find someplace else if they don’t like the direction the county is moving.  Go back 30-40 years ago and I’m Fairfax struggled with similar problems.  The western part of the county was still somewhat rural and considered “far out” from DC.

As to Blue Ridge Voter saying we need commercial development around the stations, not residential.  Most of what is being built is mixed-use.  Nearly all of the larger developments have ground-floor storefronts and plans for a good deal of office space.  It’s virtually certain that those within a mile or two of the stations will be able to fill this space with when Metro arrives.  Without it, they’ll suffer large vacancies like much of the rest of the area.

@i ride the rails - Yes!  Excellent point.  Rather than just throwing our hands up and saying MWAA and WMATA are terrible organizations, we should try to fix them.

I’m not quite sure why some are arguing that having Metro end at the airport will be the best of both worlds.  During rush hour, even getting that far will take an extra 20 minutes or so.  Instead of a 2 minute car ride for many of us, then sitting on a train (able to read, do work, etc.), that would add close to a 40-minute round-trip drive in addition to the train ride.  How is that comparable?  I would almost be able to walk to the station or easily ride a bike and not have to pay for parking, thus not having to pay for parking either.

Lobster Claw, it is obvious you are either one of the expensive Rail lobbyists, or soon to be enriched by hundreds of millions of dollars land owners…  Rail is huge money and has lots of paid lobbyists.  Who is here for the regular citizen?

If the land is so cheap in Loudoun, as you claim, and rail is admittedly so expensive, then why doesn’t the land owner chip in some, instead of feeding off the public trough?  The selfish landowners plan on raping Loudoun’s taxpayers to win big at the lottery which is rigged in their favor by their crony friends..

Even the Obama Administration cut Metro out of its budget this year because it said WMATA is inefficient and wasteful and the federal government can spend its transit money better.

Even the Obama Administration declined to help fund phase 2 (after the feds paid for the entirety of the rest of the metro system and part of phase 1) because of the low ridership numbers and because there is no cost/benefit.

PG county has a lot of crime because metro enables crime…. especially for unsuspecting working homeowners who live within a mile of metro—keep crime out of Loudoun.

It is only 2 miles of rail in Loudoun, but we are being forced to pay like we are some full partner, paying for phase 1 and phase 2, and also paying a ridiculous amount in an annual operational subsidy based on our population and a percentage of their mismanaged costs that are unpredictable for the future but known to be outrageous now.  We do know that the operation cost “subsidy” that Fairfax has paid has doubled for Fairfax County in the last few years from around 40 million to almost 90 Million..

And of course, we are being asked to share in paying for BILLIONS of deferred basic maintenance, like buying replacement trains, replacement escalators, replacement of the aging, mismanaged, mis built, corrupt system.

No thanks.

MWAA and WMATA are multi jurisdictional boards created by interstate pacts.  The only way to “reform” them is to get MD and DC to agree… and that will not happen.  They would not even agree to allow 2 more members of MWAA be appointed by our governor after Frank Wolf got federal legislation through the Congress and Obama requiring them to do this… they say Va’s constitution and laws do not apply to them?  FOIA does not apply to them, so the meet in secret.  Audits?  Forget audits, not required by any law… MWAA is a corrupt Board funneling our tax money to cronies, triple charging us… Say NO!

They see a pocket to be picked, wealthy Loudoun County, and they are only too willing to take our money.

Email the Board! 

More details about this scam at LoudounOptOut.com

Build it to Dulles Airport, and leave the 2.5 miles into Loudoun County out of the plan, that way we get the best of both worlds… and if they are ever able to reform MWAA or WMATA, then we already have the right of way, and an agreement that we can OPT IN at any time, so why the rush now, when things are so bad, and the deal we are being offered is terrible?

I agree with what a others are saying, it’s the western Loudoun folks who generally want NOTHING, they just need to go ahead and start their own County and live like it’s a 100 years ago.  The benefits of increased business that will spring up around the stops that will add to the tax base, the fact that the Greenway keeps getting more and more expensive and that is going to force more and more to 7 and 28 making those and the secondary roads more busier than they already are.  What you generally find in these forums is people who are against things; they are the ones that write in them.  We are a County of over 300K people and the SAME few that write stuff here over and over again are not representative of the County as a whole.  They are also the ones that complain about traffic, want public transportation then a solution comes up and they complain about that.  What, did you think that Metro was going to build it for free?  The metro will be a welcome site for those living in the eastern part of the County, can’t wait!!!

@Blue Ridge Voter - Quite frankly, I don’t see how triggers of additional residential building will change anything in Loudoun.  Builders already are selling as fast as they can build.  That’s practically a non-issue.

As to the comparisons of the MD stations that opened in MD in 2004, that’s hardly comparable.  PG County was in an entirely different situation to begin with.  Crime was already a huge issue there, unlike Loudoun.  Loudoun also has nearly double the educational attainment as PG (we’re at around 59% of our adults having bachelors degrees or higher, while PG is around 30%).

Go back further to 2001, and most of the stations built then were also in PG County.  I’m not trying to pick on PG, but if I’m a major employer looking to relocate a large facility, it’s hard to justify moving into an area with a crime problem and a population that has significantly lower education rates than adjacent areas.

If I’m a major employer and I can move to cheaper land in Loudoun, smack in the middle of an extremely educated population and low crime, AND I can be next to a Metro station to allow employees from Fairfax and DC to commute by rail.  Well, that’s pretty attractive.

This is corruption at it’s best. Build it, charge the heck of Loudoun taxpayers, majority of who won’t even use. The Metro in itself is a clusterfuc$. Too many chiefs, broken equipment, security issues/problems daily, safety issues…. Oh and the majority of the workforce(without degrees) are paid higher than most teachers. All it will bring to Loudoun is more housing and not the businesses projected by most in politics. Save the money Virginia.

The cost of rail not coming to Loudoun County and the 606 and 772 stations would be significant. Opponents act like this is a new issue that hasn’t been decades in the making - it goes back a long time. Now there is no doubt that MWAA and WMATA are horrible at what they do, but the push should be to fix these dysfunctional organizations not destroy a great tool to draw new businesses and families to Loudoun County

@Lobster Claw, yes these developments are proceeding, but you need to look at the County’s projections… even the County staff says Loudoun need massive commercial development around the stations, not residential, to come close to paying for this, and projections are that it will take a minimum of thirty years—or that it may take a lot longer.  Look at the Rail stations built in the last ten years in MD—no commercial development, no new development, looks almost the same… rail stations do not automatically generate economic development, as PG and Montgomery Counties are finding, but DO generate HUGE debt and bills…and do not pay for themselves..

And also consider that the second we approve rail, that triggers previous deals made by (oh gee, Herring when he was on the Board)  with approvals of a whole lot more residential.  If we say no to rail in Loudoun, then we are saying no to that trigger for exponentially more residential building, that will come before the needed commercial and Class A space are here to pay for all our residential…

and this massive residential trigger caused by the agreement to bring rail to Loudoun (that we are considering now) will create even more headaches…. those residential approvals will be massive…. we cannot handle all of this, extremely poor planning, with special interests dominating, funneling tremendous amounts of public money into private pockets of specially connected folks…

Please, if you care about financial survival of Loudoun County email the Bos at Bos@loudoun.gov to say NO to Rail.  It will double and triple our taxes for decades to come… and bind us forever into a pact with WMATA where we simply pay a percentage of their costs (and we have no control over those costs, which are mostly union driven by a terribly mismanaged system.)

I lived in DC for a while, and it used to take 2 years for the coroner to get around to autopsies for anyone who had the bad luck to die in DC… who cares that the relatives wanted to bury their loved ones…

We in Loudoun have no idea how bad it will be to let WMATA and MWAA, controlled by DC and Md, have the keys to our savings accounts…

@Blue Ridge Voter - Nothing is getting built?  Why is it that everywhere I drive I’m seeing tons of development?  Looks like a whole lot is getting built to me.  Loudoun Station, Moorefield Station, Kincora, a couple of large condo developments right next to both, countless townhome developments, countless single family developments.  Not only are things getting built, they’re getting built fast.  There are a good number near us that didn’t even exist 6-8 months ago and are now over 50% built-out.

30 years until we see benefits?  How does that make sense?  You can spin numbers to say anything you want, but if our stations are built by 2016 then people can start riding then.  Businesses near the stations will start thriving then.  Large employers will consider moving here then.  Saying we won’t see benefits for 30 years is like saying my house won’t be paid off for 30 years even though I get to use it and live in it all that time.

“...it will take decades to attract businesses and build these developments”  That’s a bit of an exaggeration.

Let it end at the airport.  Loudoun pays nothing, but gets the convenience of having the Metro right next door.  That is the perfect solution.

Rail Proponents ignore the fact that in this economy nothing is getting built, and even our government says at best, development around rail will take 30 years before we the taxpayer see any benefit from rail.  And in these projections, they only consider the cost to construct rail, they leave out the big numbers, like debt service, deferred maintenance (some say 16Billion dollars) and ordinary operating costs (which have doubled in the last few years for Fairfax) and are estimated to initially be in the $100M range ANNUALLY as Loudoun’s contribution, just for operating costs.. This is insane!  we simply cannot afford this, without doubling or tripling out property taxes… it will take decades to attract businesses and build these developments… and we can do the same thing with commuter bus stops and commuter busses TO the rail, which is only 2 miles away… they are only going to build 2.5 miles of rail in Loudoun, but we will pay BILLIONS… it will be a ball and chain for decades, and will come at the expense of SCHOOLS and critical roads we need now…

People at the Hamilton Park and Ride, who ride the bus inexpensively and efficiently downtown or to Tysons, do not want to have to drive to metro to take a train that makes so many stops and travels 25 mph… and pay for parking there, and the high price of metro to spend twice as long to get to work, or not get to work with all the delays and escalators out…

The bus is much less expensive and faster…. and for the County, it is a business that pays for itself, does not demand BILLIONS in deferred maintenance, hundreds of millions in ordinary operation costs or hundreds of millions in construction costs (which will more than a billion because we have to finance it….)

@Future Metro User - I agree.  I don’t understand all this resistance to Metro.  On one hand, I suppose the folks living in the western part of the county see no purpose for it since it doesn’t benefit them, but they apparently don’t want us easterners to have it either. (kind of like how retirees don’t want a penny to go to schools since they no longer have school-aged kids)

There’s still tons of empty land in Ashburn, and as it all becomes developed, 28 is going to turn into more of a nightmare than it already is.  Waxpool is only going to get worse.  Without rail, we have no alternatives.

And as usual, the detractors neglect the fact that we’ll have a much better chance of luring large employers near our Metro stations.  Even if we can lure 1-2 large corporations to Loudoun, that will contribute significantly to our business tax base.

Lastly, the traffic is only going to get worse in the job centers that many of us commute to.  As Tysons continues to grow, would you rather be able to ride Metro to within a couple blocks of your office or navigate it by car and find parking?

Of course everything needs to be done to contain costs, but many seem to be entirely missing the point that there ARE huge benefits that Metro will bring to Loudoun.

Sorry last comment was supposed to say that TIM KAINE gave the Dulles Toll Road to MWAA after the 50 year period expired and it was supposed to be a free road, finally… He gave it to his friends on the MWAA Board, Mame Reilly (who managed Mark Warner’s campaign)...and union Crony Mr. Martire, another MWAA member…

Oh and did they tell you about the MWAA member who was under house arrest in Africa for YEARS while he voted by proxy the way Obama wanted???

Article also does not tell the readers that we were only supposed to pay tolls on the Dulles Toll Road for 50 years, to pay for the road, and when the road was finally paid off, and we were supposed to pay NOTHING, he gave the road administratively to MWAA, an unelected unaccountable board, controlled by DC and MD, as their cash cow…  they have already accumulated hundreds of millions that no one knows how have been spent…

The lack of honesty by these Democrats is just appalling… VOTE them out!  Do not vote for I do whatever Obama wants, no matter how much it hurts Virginia, Tim Kaine, either.

Some people go around the Hamilton Park and Ride lot and try to make sure no one from West Virginia is parked there….some rant and rave about the dangers of bringing metro out beyond Vienna.  To both groups I’ll suggest you consider this: each person sitting in a metrocar seat isn’t behind the wheel and slowing you down as your burn gas driving yourself into DC and back.

Any money from the Commonwealth doesn’t lower Loudoun County taxpayer’s tab. We’d still be on the hook for ~$150 million/yr for at least 30 years. All it does is lower what MWAA has to pay. The General Assembly killed Sen. Black and Del. Marshall’s bills that would have brought accountability to MWAA, now Herring and Howell want to send them half a billion with no way to tell how it’s spent. Contact your Senator and say NO money for MWAA, and contact your Supervisor BOS@Loudoun.gov and say OPT OUT of this mess. More info at www.LoudounOptOut.com

I really don’t understand the rail haters.  Is it a Luddite thing?  If God intended us to travel by rail he wouldn’t have invented cars?  Is it just the idea that there might be a unionized worker on the job building the thing (what would you prefer, an illegal alien?). 

I agree with Senator Herring.  Rail is one big piece of solving the dysfunctional transportation system we have in Northern Virginia. 

Those fighting it (with their stupid spray-painted Scott York signs out where I live in Western Loudoun) are missing the point or else they have some other agenda that’s better served elsewhere.

Herring has done nothing for the taxpaying hard working middle class citizen.
Another redistribution of wealth club member.
Vote this union lover out

Why doesn’t this article mention that Herring voted AGAINST a bill that would have saved the taxpayers Billions of dollars by keeping MWAA from demanding a Project Labor Agreement to work on Phase II?  PLA’s are the Union’s way of driving up costs and stifling competition.  Now, thanks to Herring, VA workers will be shut out of all the jobs on Phase II and the costs are going to go through the roof!

Dulles Rail costs two times what it should, the toll road projections have proven to be bogus, and somehow, nobody seems to realize that there are finance charges on borrowed money to pay for this bloated and badly planned mess.  And yet these ‘leaders’ think it’s the most wonderful thing ever invented, and they want more tax money pumped into it.

Just say NO, and vote them out of office, before they do this and then merrily retire.

I can’t wait for the day we get to move far far away from VA, stupid job transfer I’d been better off laid off back home in SC

Senator Herring is representing out of state unions and special interests in Fairfax County here (which is in a pickle due to the HUGE undisclosed costs) and cowtowing to the Democratic powers that be. 

He is not representing Loudoun taxpayers.  He wants the Commonwealth and Loudoun taxpayers to bail out this miserably mismanaged project, with union cronyism, overpaying by double and triple.  Fairfax has made its bed, please leave Loudoun taxpayers out of this.

Loudoun will be forced to join WMATA (who operates metro) and subject to MWAA’s dictates if we agree to the current proposal to build 2.5 miles of rail into Loudoun.  They are drooling at the prospect of hooking us into all their costs… and threatening us that they control the Dulles Toll Road tolls, and they will punish us if we do not fork over our money.

In addition to paying tolls (which they can use however they like,) Loudoun—like DC, Arlington, Alexandria, etc.—will pay a percentage of all costs of metro based on population when it is projected that less than 1 percent of our population will ever use metro.  Loudoun is their cash cow!

Taxpayers say no!  Our property taxes could easily double to pay for this, and scare resources are all going to rail, when we have so many unfinished critical roads that need to be built…

I agree with Blue Ridge Voter and have posted similar arguments in the past.  Loudoun doesn’t want to get in bed with the disaster known as WMATA.  Soon we’ll be on the hook for escalators in Dupont Circle that should have been replaced 20 years ago.

If MWAA wants this so bad, they should be filing with the FAA to increase passenger facility charges.  Leave Loudoun residents out of it.  I drive to work in Arlington now.  It sucks, but is the price you pay for living so far out.  If I don’t want to drive, I’ll take the Loudoun Commuter bus.  No need for a train station.

Cuccinelli calls this a Real Estate Deal, not a transportation project. That pretty much sums it up.

Loudoun had better wake up and realize what is going on.

Call or email your supervisors and say opt out NOW.

BOS@loudoun.gov

If they get this wrong there is no undoing it, it will cost Loudoun,it is BILLIONS FOREVER.

Don’t wait…they will vote soon.

This is a bad project! Make sure your state Coingress and Senate know how you feel. It’s a huge waste!

Kudos for Senator Herring for supporting additional funding for Phase II.  If we do nothing, Loudoun residents pay an unfair share of these costs.  If we act, we minimize the cost on Loudoun and Herndon residents.  Go Senator Herring!

Good balanced article TM. Thanks!
Herring and Howell, spare us from just another We Love Rail Blatherfest.
Of course, Metro will always need more money, more federal money, more state money, and lots more money from the richest county in America, Loudoun. Why, because Metro is a bottomless Money Pit.
National significance you say, then why is Obama defunding it? It fails miserably as a transportation fix and studies do not support the claim of it being an economic stimulus.
The only economic activity it will stimulate is what comes from handing over hundreds of millions of Virginia dollars from Tolls and Taxes to out-of-state unions who would build it.
Herring and Howell are from the old school of pro-reckless spending that thinks the only way to fix something is to infuse it with more spending. If is so good, get the business community to kick in some big bucks…or do they see this as the scam that it is.

Paper also does not tell you that it is owned by MC DEAN, an electrical contractor doing the electrical work on phase 1 who wants to do the work on Phase 2… he makes out like a bandit? and Loudouners are bankrupted with property tax increases… we could easily see our property taxes double and triple to pay for this…

They want to focus on $500 M, and just ignore the BILLIONS in deferred maintenance that no one can pay for, or the annual operation costs (different from “maintenance”) which we sign onto blind, just agreeing to pay a percentage of whatever it is they come up with based on our population…

They also ignore the fact that phase 1 in Reston cost several billion dollars, and if Loudoun opts into phase 2, Loudoun will have to pay a portion of the phase 1 construction costs..

And they conveniently leave out the facts that yes the construction only cost 3 Billion for phase 1 in Fairfax County, BUT Fairfax County will have to spend 40BILLION on its own to make the roads around the stations work… Loudoun is not as wealthy as Fairfax, we cannot afford this now… Fairfax said no 30 years ago, because they could not afford it… we have the right of way, if we ever want to build this thing, build it when we can afford it, when we already have a start on the economic development to pay for it, and when we have already built the roads to support the stations… when will we be able to complete the Loudoun County Parkway if the State and our County put ALL of our transportation dollars into this?

stop it at the airport. We don’t want it.

This is a bogus project all around. Based on people I have general conversations with, and reading several news boards and comments, I see the majority as not wanting the rail to come out to Loudoun. Most of all, the price continues to climb, and they want to use the toll road to pay for 75% of the rail.  They will raise the rates to pay for the rail, and when it is paid off, they will find another pet project to raise the rates even more, the toll road is a cash cow. I know turn in to two seperate rates sorry.

That they can waste and funnel and use to BlackMail the General Assembly for more money….  all the while giving all the jobs to build the rail to union workers and contractors in MD and DC (well MD and DC control MWAA, so why not force Virginia to pay MD and DC to build a project in Virginia paid for exclusively by Virginians?) 

Taxpayers of Loudoun who are about to be eaten alive by the Democrats in Arlington, Alexandria, MD and DC should be pretty upset about all of this…

What the article fails to tell you is: due to MWAA’s mismanagement and cronyism, there is more than $13 Billion (and some say more) in deferred maintenance (escalators that don’t work) and they want Loudoun taxpayers to pay for this based on a population formula (will cost us billions) and they want Loudoun to pay an annual operation subsidy FOREVER which “subsidy” has gone up year after year (doubling in Fairfax County in just the last few years to $87 M annual payment just for operation—not construction) and they also want a contribution of about $300 M from Loudoun taxpayers AND they want Loudoun to pay for parking decks that will also cost hundreds of millions of dollars AND they want to double and triple the tolls…

And they do not explain why all the costs of Dulles Rail are double and triple average costs nationwide for heavy rail…

And they do not explain that phase 2 of Dulles Rail is the only heavy rail project in the US not to receive federal funding because the Obama administration does not think there is adequate cost/benefit due to low ridership numbers…

And they do not tell you that due to the rising fares on metro/and lack of reliability (so many stops closed) ridership is dropping over the whole system..

And they do not tell you that in Maryland, many of the built stops have seen NO economic development since they were built, still have seen nothing for years, due to the economy…

And they do not tell you that the economic “lag” is more than 30 years (optimistically) for any economic benefit in Loudoun (and this is when they have no idea how they will pay for the billions in necessary maintenance or how much they will arbitrarily charge Loudoun for ‘operation” which we will have no control over, it will be determined by a formula based on population, so we will pay a percentage of an unkown (except we know that already it will probably be about 100 M/year in the near future) .... FOREVER…

We cannot afford this!  All for 2.5 miles of Rail in the far corner of the County that the government predicts less that 1 percent of Loudoun’s population will use….

Leave Loudoun out of it.  Yes, the other jurisdictions will probably get stuck with huge bills to pay for not only the new construction but also maintenance and operation… and may even get stuck with bailing out the developers on the rail line, whose rosy plans are probably not going to pan out, but then they will be “too big to fail” because Northern Virginia will have already invested Billions hoping they would succeed.. so we bail them out too…

all the while paying higher and higher tolls to the mismanaged and corrupt MWAA who controls the Dulles Toll Road.  Tolls were supposed to be used to pay for the road, not as MWAA’s private piggy bank that they can waste and funnel…