Even California welfare recipients have to work 32 hours for benefits but not part time school employees in Loudoun!

Please fight for the taxpayer.  We have children in school and care, but let’s face it, our schools are gold plated and the tax burden is now hurting the very families that schools claim to care about.  I hope the school board hears our plea!

@ tired of haters…great points! The LCPS system also needs to keep the quality teachers that the currently have because they (the teachers) are very concerned and tired of being mistreated. Again, I point to the “overnighted” grading system overhaul at the elementary level with the “1-4” system. On top of that, the teachers are forced to write things called “Learning Progression Scales,” as well as writing novel-sized comments on the wonderful “bang for the buck” system called Clarity (not too popular with the LCPS staff). The elementary teachers are wondering why things can’t be easy as, say, the comment blocks that the middle/high schools have. Perhaps if the “powers that be” at the higher levels ease up on the teachers, maybe, just maybe they can actually do their jobs…and be happier.

wow..after reading all the negative comments about teacher pay it makes me wonder…will these same people continue to complain when Loudoun cannot recruit any good teachers and our class size jumps and we only have inexperienced newly graduated kids to teach our (their) kids? Nah, they probably don’t have kids or don’t care. Get over it, teachers are just as important if not more important than some pseudo government contracting IT job…but sadly make a lot less!

As a point of reference: Montgomery, MD starts new teachers at 47-48. My area of NJ (ugh I hate NJ and would rather live around you folks) is not the most expensive part and is starting at 50k(more expensive state). I think Loudoun should be starting around 46k instead of 43,500ish….and capping at 95k at 25 years with a Master’s. if I remember correctly…your apts/housing are equal to NJ now.

IHLC…Surrounding counties do take a lot from Fairfax and Loudoun. With the economy/layoff situation things have sort of frozen up. However, traditionally, it is fairly common for people to get their experience in NOVA and then move on. Back in 2000, I was up in NY State. The saying was “If you need work, go down to Loudoun, VA they hire anybody who breathes!” The general reputation is that your area is a good place to start if you need a job, but not a place you want to put time in. It’s a shame, because it is a really awesome area. Rural salaries used to be fine for NOVA. However, the area has become very busy and developed…and indeed more sophisticated. The citizens in your area are also fussier regarding the quality of schools. Rural salaries don’t work for Loudoun/Fairfax anymore. Oh well there’s my two cents…I probably won’t be back on here as I sort of found this randomly. I wish all of you the best, and hope you NOVA folks start considering the fact that you are now a booming metropolitan area and need to pay metropolitan area salaries. Personally, I think Fairfax should be matching Montgomery,MD with Loudoun slightly behind that.

People live what they learn:
IF w/  kindness, fairness, motivation, curiosity, and respect   ;-}
OR w/  hostility, inequity, complacency, indifference, and disdain

I prefer the former!  I also won’t let negative attempts to rile bother me.  Naysayers try to goad others into reactionary mode; most likely have not spent any significant time in classrooms.

Here we go again with so many ignorant comments from taxpayers whining about paying a teacher.  Good grief, homeschool your kids.  You seem to know so much about teaching.  Heaven forbid a teacher ask for a COLA. It seems it will never be okay to ask reading these and most other comments in the past regarding a teacher’s worth.  Sick of hearing teacher’s whine and complain about getting a raise or how much they do?  How about you stop whining and complaining about how little they do and how easy they have it. Maybe then they wouldn’t need to defend their profession. The teaching profession has been dumped on for years now. Quite your jobs and go teach.  Then and only then may you open your big, fat, ignorant mouths.

“I think you people are insane for not paying your teachers more. I’m looking down there, and took a peak at your salary guide. Quite frankly, I don’t know how your attract teaching applicants at all. It’s a great area, but sadly you won’t be seeing my application anytime soon. I’ll go bankrupt if I taught in NOVA!”

@ Chris…nice post, and you are absolutely correct (and smart to stay away). I am surprised that the surrounding counties aren’t putting their feelers out and scooping up the Loudoun teachers. 

LCPS teachers do a heck of a lot more, and deal with more things from “above,” demanding, high maintenance parents, and disrespectful kids (there are many exceptions, of course).

Some of these people should “walk a mile in their shoes,” and sit in the classroom with a teacher for the day and find out exactly what the LC teachers go through and have to deal with on a daily basis. No wonder most stay for a few years and go back to sanity. Sad.

Regarding Anti-Tax Sentiment:

Matthew 17: 24-27, Matthew 22:15-22, Romans 13:1-2, and
Romans 13:5-7

The numbers have been crunched on this posting so that even one such as you who I assume has problems with retention could grap the concept that the taxburden by the school is utter silliness. Teachers are paid full time money for part time work and yeah I don’t like it. It’sa waste of tax dollars read the rest of the posts then get back to me junior. I think the seniors and military have already paid their share and it’s time for the parents to assume a larger share of thew burden. You wouldn’t be missed. cheers!

Wasabi - With all the young Gen X families who have moved here that procreate like rabbits, just what do you expect your tax dollars to be going toward?  If you don’t like it, move someplace that isn’t growing or is filled with retirees who think they don’t need to support schools since their own kids are grown.

81 percent of our tax dollars goes to schools!!!!!
just plain crazy!!!!!

How about FirstGroup America and I did send a e-mail to Supervisor Suzanne Volpe with the contact information and what they require to do a cost analysis. Tell me a solution as I know we are paying to much for school bus-driver benefits.

@Loudoun Taxpayer….. newsflash:  Compensating those part-time workers with benefits is the ONLY way LCPS can get those particular positions filled.  If you happen know anyone who will drive a school bus or attend on a special need bus for 3-5 hours a day withOUT benefits, please encourage them to apply!  LOL, good luck!

What’s wrong with anti-tax?

Again I ask: “What exactly have your favorite candidates or you personally done to promote excellence and equity in education, nationally or locally?

Few that speak against deserving teachers have valid arguments; some only know how to use labels, rants and anti-tax rhetoric. Maybe a real debate class should be in the budget.

@Imemine: Only a liberal would speak as you do, delayed pipeline: mmmm can we add the teachers that Obama claimed to support & are now out of work, as for that math teacher, not the only one…the education system is full of teachers like that math teacher and the only ones that are suffering are the students.

Downplaying Obama’s failure is whats wrong with Obama supporters: you fail to see that supporting this person will only hurt you in the future.

Didn’t ignore you echyone….there are a myraid of reasons that merit pay won’t work. Just didn’t feel like getting into it on this thread.  You asked how much was too much and then added “when they take it all?”  That sounds paranoid to me. Just my opinion.

@Loves our teachers

You do not seem to be listening to what I am saying.

Please do some research on the redistribution of wealth since you do not believe me. then let us know what your understanding of it.

You insist on taking what I say to an extreme. I never mentioned worry about being penniless. I asked how much taxation is too much? No one ever answered.

I have demonstrated that teachers are paid fairly and I proposed an alternative way so the good teachers get paid more. But you ignore me.

You only hear what you want to hear. That is too bad, because if you do not listen there cannot be a dialog it will just be you yelling at me to be quite.

Echyone-You used redistribution of wealth and teachers in the same statement. Teachers aren’t asking for handouts. They are professionals asking for a fair salary. And I’m sorry you are so worried that if you invest in your community, you will end up penniless b/c eventually the BOS will take all your money and redistrute it to the teachers.

@I Me Mine

I am not lecturing anyone. I am merely stating some facts about teacher pay and wasteful spending in the school system.

If you read a little further down the list of posts you will see why I mention who I voted for.

We do spend a lot of money on education here in Loudoun. I question how it is spent. Technology? Did you read the NY Times article I reference? Higher wages for all teachers? I demonstrate that they are already paid fairly with excellent benefits.

I do appreciate many of the teachers and some I do not. I recommend basing raises on performance. I also believe starting pay should be adjusted. New college graduates with better credentials should start off with higher pay than those that don’t bring as much to the table.

Finally, I am not Nothing Changes.

I am moderate also; I’m just glad that all the moderates I know value education for all, appreciate teachers, and support bond issues consistently which assist students and contribute to parity between older and newer facilities.

Most people who know me consider me a moderate. I voted for Clinton, Bush, and McCain in the last four elections. I preferred Giuliani to McCain but he did not make it to the General election. If that makes me a right wing kook then so be it.

“Our President has governed as a moderate”

Odummer has governed as a moderate? LOL! He’s a radical leftist. He used the first two years of his term to push the democratic wishlist through Congress: Obamacare, “Stimulus” package, Cash for Clunkers, Bailing out Irresponsible Homeowners, etc.

Maybe Odummer wouldn’t be fighting the GOP over the budget today if had bothered to pass one when the democrats had control of both the legistlative and executive branches.

“echyone” seems fond of lecturing on all manner of related topics, generally an ineffectual teaching method; “Nothing Changes” has an ax to grind because of a math teacher and delayed pipeline.  Maybe you’re one and the same?  What exactly have your favorite candidates or you personally done to promote excellence and equity in education, nationally or locally?  Investment in education and personnel is not as selfish an act as you’re making it seem; however, worry about keeping your own pockets lined might be.  When does it become too much?

@Let’s Stay Together with Bacrack Obama: time to face reality here about Obama: he failed, period.

How has he failed: stood in a Kentucky and stated that American’s would build America’s infrastructure, gave the job to China….. Keystone pipeline: another failure to produce jobs in America…..wasted monies to companies gone bankrupt….nations debt up 5 plus trillion dollars in 3 years…..cutting our military:endangering our nation….the list is long and growing.

Obama failed to do his job, in his own words he stated he should be a one term president if he could not do his job and turn the nation around, he needs to go.

Echyone is clearly someone who spouts the right wing kook drivel of “tea party” types who have ruined the GOP. President Obama will serve another term and the GOP will lose seats in the house and the senate in 2012.  The tide has turned against these reactionary nut cases.  Our President has governed as a moderate.  I used to vote for GOP presidents, but not this time.

Sane people understand the value of public education, good roads, libraries, safe food and water, care for the sick and homeless.

Keep believing you are part of the 1% or will get there some day echyone.  You are a useful idiot.

@by Loudoun County:I bet Hatrick is teminated in June.  Any takers?

It all comes down to his contract and what it allows him should be be terminated? Will the new BOS be willing to pay the settlement if it is in the contract: a possible clause stating new board over rides old contract…..mmmmmm thoughts a million.

@Love our teachers

You quote me yet you don’t read what I wrote. Two words after “causes” is the word “people”.

Regarding your and Lobsters quote about taxes being an investment in the community. At what point will you say its too much? When they take it all?

“Redistribution of wealth as I see it (there are probably others that agree with me) is government using tax dollars & policy and providing those tax dollars to other causes or people (in this case teachers). ” -echyone

Um…Since when are teachers a “cause”. The question is how much are we willing to pay DEGREED PROFESSIONALS to provide our wonderful county’s children with a top-notch education. I like the quote from Lobster Claw-

“Stop thinking of taxes as somebody stealing out of your back pocket.  You’re investing in your community.”

I’ll be using it!

@echyone,

Your empathy knows no bounds. Bless your heart.

I said I don’t value an education?? Where/When did I say that?

What I don’t value is wasting money. I don’t believe that a poor teacher should get the same raise as a good one. I don’t believe technology in the classroom works (Google Technology in Schools Faces Questions on Value and read the NY Times article). There is so much bloat in the school budget that last year they “found” over $10 million, which they immediately spent rather than return to the taxpayers. If you are a property owner here in Loudoun you too should be concerned.

I know the LCPS does not levy the taxes. But the budget the LCPS puts out eventually morphs into a good portion of my property tax bill.

“If a doctor, lawyer, or dentist had 40 people in his office at one time, all of whom had different needs, and some of whom didn’t want to be there and were causing trouble, and the doctor, lawyer, or dentist, without assistance, had to treat them all with professional excellence for nine months, then he might have some conception of the classroom teacher’s job.”
Donald D. Quinn

“The true teacher defends his pupils against his own personal influence.” A. Bronson Alcott

Thanks Lobster Claw for getting it! On behalf of the many excellent LCPS teachers, I know your support is meaningful.

Part time workers (down to 17 hrs per week) get FULL benefits and something is WRONG!  I don’t know any company who give part time people anything in benefits! My taxes are strangling me.  No more benefits to part timers!!

@echyone - I suppose we fundamentally disagree about the value of education.  I believe investment in education (including investing in the best teachers) leads to better jobs, higher salaries, and to being competitive in the global economy.  I believe it is the best investment for long-term economic health.  You apparently have a much lower opinion of teachers and education.

@Loves Teaching - Thank you for being a teacher.  There are many of us who have a great appreciation for you and others who choose to do the same.

LCPS does not have taxing authority; they just provide a budget, most of which reflects personnel.  echyone should talk with the BOS about redistribution of wealth.  Since individuals on the School Board cannot allocate dollars, this government of 9 on the BOS has much responsibility to all their public, including teachers and other school employees.  You missed a chance to respond to other ideas that Lobster Claw and I made, and instead made a judgment about fair wage while claiming to “set the record straight.”  Talking points.

echyone’s words - “Redistribution of wealth as I see it (there are probably others that agree with me) is government using tax dollars & policy and providing those tax dollars to other causes or people (in this case teachers). The reasoning being government does not believe that individuals have the capacity to correctly allocate their dollars.”

@Lobster Claw

I am not misusing your words. They are printed below for everyone to see. A young teacher couple living in Loudoun County is a family. “Doing everything possible” means not having children right away as they will not be able to afford raising the child (I would hope that you would agree that this is true for most young people).

Redistribution of wealth as I see it (there are probably others that agree with me) is government using tax dollars & policy and providing those tax dollars to other causes or people (in this case teachers). The reasoning being government does not believe that individuals have the capacity to correctly allocate their dollars. Your distaste for people buying luxury items ($15,000 for worthless features on a Lexus) rather than accept higher taxes is indicative of someone who supports income redistribution.

My agenda is only to set the record straight. Teachers here make a fair wage.

Finally, roads are paid for with income taxes, gasoline taxes, and tolls. Property tax pays for schools (with a little coming from the state and federal government via income taxes)

Lobster Claw - echyone clearly wants to have the last word, nitpick everyone else’s statements, aggravate caring teachers, fuss about redistributing wealth, and judge others’ proficiencies.  Classic talking points. If echyone is a salaried LCPS employee, then he/she responds on county time at 2:50.

Suddenly Single, echyone doesn’t care about your circumstances - don’t bother. We however can choose to invest in the community and in our future, our children, while asking for equitable treatment and being proud of our service.

I bet Hatrick is teminated in June.  Any takers?

@Suddenly Single

Wasn’t there an earlier post by Lobster Claw (someone who I am guessing you agree with) stating that unemployment here in Loudoun County was only 3.9%? So I guess that they would very quickly find a new job.

@echyone,

What type of family planning do you suggest for families who had a suitable income prior to pregnancy, but now struggle to make ends meet thanks to death or illness or other matters beyond their control?

Meant to say “millions of parents in this country”.  Clearly we don’t have millions just in our county.

@echyone - You’re misusing my words.  I said, “do everything possible”.  That’s entirely different than being well off and having plenty of money.  There are millions of parents in this county who are doing everything possible, meaning working as hard as they can at multiple jobs, AND STILL CAN’T MAKE ENDS MEET.  If they want badly to have children, should they go ahead and not have them just because it will be financially difficult?  If everyone waiting until they were financially comfortable to have kids, I’m guessing our birth rate in this country would drop 90%.  Go ahead and twist my words some more, like you’ve done for everybody in this discussion.  All you’ve done in cherry-picked whatever you feel like arguing with in my comments.  I’ve provided plenty of data points for you to consider, yet you’ve conveniently chosen to ignore ALL of them each time.

If you don’t see how whining about paying taxes but not thinking twice about buying fivolous items in hypocritical, then I clearly can’t reason with you.  I have NOTHING against people spending their money on whatever they want.  I simply find it amusing how up-in-arms people get about paying taxes for what are undeniably valuable services.  Do you disagree that education, fire fighters, police, roads, libraries, parks, buses, etc. are extraordinarily valuable to a community?  Stop thinking of taxes as somebody stealing out of your back pocket.  You’re investing in your community.  And I said NOTHING about redistributing wealth.

You clearly have your agenda and your narrow set of beliefs.  Nobody is going to change your mind.  I’m sorry you value our teachers so poorly.  However, while I feel I get value for my tax money in Loudoun, I would still recommend you find someplace else with lower taxes.  Perhaps you’ll be less angry.  But don’t complain when you have to home school your kids, or if the police or fire department aren’t there when you need them.  Or if you only have dirt roads to drive on.

@Loves Teaching

You are correct about Virginia being a Right to Work state. However, you don’t seem to understand what it means. What Right to Work means is that you cannot be forced to join the union as a condition of employment. You may not have joined the union but I bet many of your colleagues have.

@Lobster Claw

You are clearly confused when you say I am “full of ignorant comments” yet in the very next sentence agree with me by saying that people should “do everything possible to provide a financially stable environment”.

Regarding how people spend their own money you say “The same people who whine about this have no issue with dumping an extra $15,000 into some worthless features in their Lexus.” Please explain how someone choosing to spend there own money on an expensive car rather than give it to a government to spend are equal choices?

What I am upset about is people like yourself who are trying to redistribute wealth.

echyone - This a right to work state = no unions.  I joined other professional organizations, not the local education association although I appreciate their efforts on health care and sick bank, along with attempts to get reasonable raises and COLAs.  Dedicated teachers know where they stand with their superiors and don’t need to ask for appreciation.  It’s just in the public online forum, responses to teachers’ concerns come in a stream-of-consciousness type of emotional and maybe irrational manner.

I find peer review and collaborative efforts more advantageous to students than competitive merit pay based on a once-per-year measure.  Thanks to Lobster Claw for reasoned comments.  It’s not all about the numbers, it’s about students and equitable treatment.

I will be speaking at the board meeting tomorrow night. I find it despicable that the county wants to strip benefits from the employees who make the least amount of money. How can the average bus driver with their salary of $19,000 a year pay 100% of their health insurance premiums?  They already pay close to $400 a month which is EXACTLY the same as the teachers, principals, directors, etc.  However all these people make tens of thousands more a year then drivers do.  You do not hear them complaining to lower the cost for them.  All they ask is to continue receiving the same benefits as they always have.  They most certainly do in my opinion!!!

@echyone - Wow, you are just full of ignorant comments.  If somebody wants kids, is going to give them a loving home, work hard to raise them, and do everything possible to provide a financially stable environment, who are you to tell them they can’t have kids?

“The difference between me and a teacher is that I do not go to the Board of Supervisors (or my superiors) talking about all the extra time I put in and not getting paid for it.”  You may not, but there are PLENTY of people in the private sector who do.  And many don’t because they actually do get decent raises from their employers, so there’s no need to ask.

The bigger problem here is that people don’t seem to understand all that they get for their tax dollars.  Even if you own a large $700k house in this county and have two kids, you’re getting full-time schooling for both, fire and police protection, infrastructure improvements, snow plowing, and countless other services for $8,995/year.  That seems like a bargain.  If you live in a $400k home, you get all of the same for $5,140.

The same people who whine about this have no issue with dumping an extra $15,000 into some worthless features in their Lexus.

If you’re so upset, move someplace else with lower tax rates, lower services, and you can foot the bill for private schools.

@Loves Teaching

As a Salaried employee I am paid for 40 hours of work each week. I regularly put in more than that. The difference between me and a teacher is that I do not go to the Board of Supervisors (or my superiors) talking about all the extra time I put in and not getting paid for it.

If teacher really wanted to be treated like professionals they would get rid of the unions and demand pay for performance rather than this ratcheted pay scale they cling to.

@b

Some family planning will help you avoid having children when you cannot afford to raise them.

To the comment:  “You can live in Loudoun County on $45K per year”  I am hear to tell you that if you have children and are unable to have a renter to help out you CANNOT live in Loudoun on $45K per year.

@Lobster Claw: not off topic..budget should include teachers raises and the firing of bad teachers and superintendents.

What is a bad teacher: from my view: a teacher so dead pan on having the student learn a topic they are teaching their way and only their way. That is not teaching.

@Nothing Changes - Are you focusing on a few bad experiences?  Or dismissing all the good that the rest of the teachers did?  In any case, this is a bit off-topic.

@Chris K - “The most important resource of any school system is it’s teachers, bar none.”  So true!

In terms of salary, the one thing I would argue is that the difference between the high end of the salary scale (28 years experience) seems out-of-whack with younger teachers.  Is a teacher with 28 years of experience really that much more valuable than a teacher with 10 years of experience?  The current scale would indicate that the teacher with 28 years is 76% more valuable.  Is a teacher with 28 years worth double that of a new teacher?  I would argue there are some teachers who have been teacher for 3-4 years that do just as good a job as those with decades of experience.  Perhaps the scale should be compressed a bit.

I think everyone here is looking at the school budget the wrong way.  The most important resource of any school system is it’s teachers, bar none.  All they are asking for is a COLA, and yes I understand that still equals a large portion of the budget but shouldn’t we be looking more at cutting the fat from the budget rather than the teacher’s minor raises?
What about the interactive white boards and the technology in all theses classrooms?  Do we really need that stuff?  We learned just fine with black boards and chalk, why do we suddenly need a computer for everyone and interactive wi-fi classrooms? (exaggerating)
Seems like we do these things so we can brag about how great our school system is to the rest of the country.  Why not just focus on teaching the kids and not on our national ranking?

Remember the recent article that said there are 1,552 LCPS employees that cost over $100,000 per year?  Now, tell me again that LCPS needs a raise.  Ha, ha, ha, ha.  They need a swift kick in the pants, not a raise.

Use the Wabe numbers. Average Loudoun salary for teachers is 61 k plus 25 k in benefits = 86 k a year for 3/4 time work plus it’s not even a 8 hour day. School spending is 15 k a student when you factor in school debt.

Parents, get involved in your child’s education starting with pre-kindergarten thru 12th grade.

I, as a parent never relied solely on the public education system, too many flaws followed with different teaching methods.

What I learned in school is not being taught to our children and what we learned is being erased and replaced with completely different information.

Best to review your child’s history books and others books he/she may bring home, I’d just wager you’d find many a surprise as to what their teaching the children these days.

My husband is an engineer and he taught our son algebra, when we went to his teacher she said that as long as my son could show his method/answer she would accept the work as he had trouble understanding her method: she lied. She failed him for not doing the math HER WAY. This would be a teacher I would want dismissed from teaching, more concern for herself and method than whats best for the student.

Education is supposed to be for the student using any and all means so that student can learn: it is not an ego trip job for teachers to demean a student’s learning ability with the teacher’s failure to recognize not all students will learn from their method of teaching.

echyone -  “In fifteen years I must have been up to a school after the buses rolled out dozens of times. I can tell you that those schools are pretty empty at that time.”  So how do you assess this?  You have an adjustable schedule or don’t work?  You seem to have a lot of time to research bell schedules, etc.

You missed the point about not everyone getting paid for after-school work; I guess by using the word “probably” it covers your data on athletics, but ignores the extra, unpaid time many spend on academic endeavors.

No one goes into the teaching profession because of the money. Teachers just get tired of hearing misinformation about their efforts and dedication, generally negative and nit-picky.  Again, spend a week in their shoes!

@Dad in Loudoun - To your point #1, how does that argument make any sense?  By your logic, teachers should just shut up and accept whatever they’re paid.  If we cut their pay to minimum wage, they should just shut up because they knew going in that teaching didn’t pay much?  Should we tell firemen the same thing?  Or police?

And no, the economy is not in the toilet here.  Loudoun County’s unemployment rate as of two months ago was 3.9%.  That’s healthy even in a GREAT economy.  Our situation in the DC area isn’t even remotely comparable to much of the rest of the country.  Have you seen the new home developments around here?  People are snapping up $500-$700k homes in droves.

I could care less about the amount of time a teacher punches on the clock. What’s important is the quality of education they teach. Results should be the metric by which each “individual” teacher is judged by and pay is reflected by.

Most of the schools in Loudoun have a 6 hr 45 minute day (Google loudoun county school bell schedule). With 30 minutes (I am guessing here) for lunch that means the teachers still owe (per their contract) 45 minutes of time. This could be what some are calling 3-4 hours of extra time put in?

@Loves Teaching

Go to the Washington Post Jobs section online and search for coach in Loudoun County. Football Coach pays $5,235.00. I don’t think that is an assumption.

Students who require special education services need the support in order to be successful.  Making sure those students have the support they need is life-changing—the difference between reading or not, between having the skills to go to college or not, or even live independently or not.  Trimming the budget by cutting services for these students is not an option.

Dear Dad,
Our “arguments” are in response to those who on the thread that insist we are paid well for the amount of time we work-7 hours a day, summers off etc. It’s not so much an argument as a clarification. Then people tell us we are lying.

Dad In Loudoun just remember this….If you want your child to get a great education in Loudoun you better help the teachers etal by supporting raises and better benefits because if you don’t you might as well move into DC closer to work and educate your little darlings there cause the standards here will fall way below DC’s

What I don’t understand are two of the teachers favorite arguments:

1) “We have to work extra hours at home and deal with all kinds of children at school, for little money”

Didn’t you know this would be the likely outcome when you went to school to become a teacher?  It’s kind of like a person signing up to be a fisherman and then complaining about the smell of the fish. (and no, I’m not comparing the two jobs”

2)“I don’t make enough money to live in Loudoun County as a teacher”

This one is my favorite for two reasons.  1)  Who said you had to live where you work?  I work in DC, but I can’t afford to live there.  Should my company give me more salary so I can buy a home there?  2)  The fact is that you can live in Loudoun county on 45K a year.  It may be in an apartment or a small house, but you can live here.

I am very thankful for the great education my children have received from very hard working teachers in LCPS.  BUT, I am also aware that the economy is still in the TOILET and no one is getting raises.  When times were good, teachers got great raises (sometimes 10-15%), but none of them remember that.

Assumption:  “The ones who are there are probably coaching or coordinating some after school club or activity for which they are paid extra.”

In thirty years at eight different elementary and middle schools, many of my colleagues never left the building before 5 pm.  Some of us coached or coordinated Odyssey of the Mind for numerous years, several hours weekly September - March.  Add to that 10 hours at Regional Meet, going to special meetings to request funding from the PTO, all for no pay.  Others hold after-school tutoring sessions, homework clubs, before-school exercise groups, team meetings with parents, again gratis.

Thank goodness for some appreciative parents who made our volunteerism worthwhile.  Please do not make generalizations about dedication of teachers.

Nothing gets people in Loudoun fired up more than Schools and Budgets.

At Least John Stevens had a CDL and paid attention to “The Worker Bees”....

Memo To The School Board Members:
If you cut benefits to the worker bees such as the Bus Drivers you might wanna get your CDLs and learn how to drive your kids to school.  Because there will not be any drivers to drive any busses…we promise you that!

@echyone thanks for the data, and I understand that posting sources can be a challenge on LTM.  I get your general point; i’m not dismissing your argument on the basis of national averages.  However, there are other criteria to consider.  In the interest of time, i can’t provide citations, but will call it speculation:

1. Loudoun cost of living is certainly higher than the national average.  I think it’s a compelling argument that in order to get teachers that can promote the level of achievement we want here, we are going to have to pay more than the average county just on that basis alone.

2. The number of “high achievers” that reside here in the adult population is significant - and higher than the national average.  I would argue that our general population, on average, has a higher level of education degree.  This, in turn, creates a competitive environment (which we see evidence of in our schools) - which calls for a strong core of teachers.

My point is, while I understand that we are paying more, there are substantive reasons to pay more in Loudoun than in other areas of the country. 

I also understand this matter is complex.  There are no defined boundaries to the many issues at hand.  I think you bring some good arguments to the table, and would encourage you to look at Loudoun in a localized light, and not a generic national metric.

All you who think most teachers go skipping out after the kids…so you walk throu the halls and peer into each and every classroom. I’m baffled b/c I’ve worked in several schools (elem and middle). I myself stay 3-4 hours after the kids leave each day and I’m not alone by any means. So w/e…we get paid for 37.5 hours…the time the kids are in the building…even a teacher who works the minimum has to work more hours just to do the minimum of planning, grading, meetings etc…

@Lobster Claw

We used to live in Ashburn and now live in Leesburg. With all of the adjustments of school boundaries my kids have been in four different elementary schools, two middle schools, and two high schools. In fifteen years I must have been up to a school after the buses rolled out dozens of times. I can tell you that those schools are pretty empty at that time. The ones who are there are probably coaching or coordinating some after school club or activity for which they are paid extra.

Are you sure that the people you are seeing aren’t parents (volunteers)?

@As a teacher

Where did I say I say “we”?

@burndude

These numbers may be off slightly as they are for different years. Although it should not matter as the salaries have been unchanged for the last couple of years. If you can find me numbers for a single year I will gladly use them.

The Starting Salary for a Teacher straight out of school in Loudoun County in 2012 is $43,715.

Jan. 2011 cost of living index in Loudoun County: 117.8 (U.S. average is 100).

The Average Starting Salary for Teachers in 2010 was $39,000.

The Adjusted National Average Starting Salary for a teacher in 2010 is $45,942 (39,000 * 117.8%).

The difference is about 5% lower than Average ($2,227). I still think what they are being paid is more than fair. The other part of the equation is Benefits. Getting averages for those is difficult. But I am pretty confident that Loudoun County Teachers have excellent benefits when compared to other school systems nationally.

Note: I tried to include references to my sources but the form sould not let me.

How is it that LCPS educators are denigrated for doing work others could not or would not do?  How much is it worth to expect lifelong learners to teach others to be productive members of society?  Teachers have become pawns for BOS deliberations, scapegoats of disgruntled taxpayers, and targets for online “trolls.” Most of us know and respect that a solid education is the foundation to all professions.

I challenge all who complain about “work to the rule” LCPS teachers, “plush” salaries, and “easy” work schedules to spend a week in a classroom:

trying to ward off contagious illnesses or wiping runny noses; accepting both the extremely able and underachieving students; answering complex and inane questions; sharing comfort or tissues; dealing with middle school hormones; waiting with students on 2nd bus calls, sponsoring after-school activities that are not remunerated like favored athletics; listening to joys and concerns with sensitivity; planning nine-week lessons; enhancing lessons with appropriate programs and field trips; advocating for troubled students; spending many a morning or afternoon in lengthy conferences; alleviating pressures from home; assisting high schoolers getting ready for college; meeting the requirements for NCLB without any funding; paying for classes in continuing education to keep licensure current; subscribing to professional journals for updated research; writing meaningful evaluations which provide feedback to improve learning; providing critical and creative approaches to meet standards; encouraging each and every student without favoritism; teaching problem-solving and decision-making; sharing best practices with other educators in collegial relationships; balancing life with work, to mention a few.

Those of us who live out this calling do not expect others to understand, just recognize our efforts with fairness.

This is what you get when you have a penny pinching school board who operates at the discretion of Scott York.  His penny pinching, micromanagement will have long term negative effects on the schools.  It’s a cop out to blame everything on Hatrick.

@Lobster Claw I think its you who needs to get a clue on reality. “Extremely common to work 10 - 11 hours a day?”  Really?  Maybe for a very small fraction of the staff. Meet meet at (You Pick)Elementary School Monday at 5:05 PM and we will do some research.

@returning home

Here is part of a job description for Teacher on the LCPS site:
OPEN UNTIL FILLED

APPLY TO:  Department of Personnel Services

SALARY:  Salary Range: $43,715 - $99,081

197 Day Position (Prorated), 7 hours per day

Not sure where the 7.5 hours a day comes from.  Looks liket he mandated number is 7 hours per day and not a minute more as the LEA continually points out. (“work to the rule,etc…)

I understand some teachers work more.  Hats off to you. Let’s have incentive pay for the best teachers.  Opps, can’t do that in the public sector….

I would urge the school board to focus on hiring good teachers and paying them well!!  The returns will be far greater than those gained by paying for all the empire building fluff that Hatrick has built into his budget.

Teachers will never get rich being teachers - they all acknowledge that.  We need to stop making them pay for budgeting shortfalls because teacher comp is a large line item.  The collective salary budget is huge, but the raise amounts oer teacher we are considering are pretty small when you come right down to it.  All the fancy schools and complex technology purchases are wasted if we can only recruit sub-par teachers (who won’t know how to effectively use those tools anyways).  We need to look at scaling pay to performance - not just tenure.  It is virtually impossible to get rid of even a mediocre teacher in the current system!  The other area that needs to be addressed is the school construction planning/land acquisitions.  Hatrick does not understand that we don’t want these huge school campuses in the western rural areas, and they will continue to spin their wheels trying to locate them as such.  We want smaller schools, located in the communities they serve.  And there is no coordinated process for making school location decisions, as the BOS has the purse strings, and Hatrick is stuck doing his posturing to get anything close to what is needed.  Until that “process” is corrected, we will continue to make poor decisions, and end up with 1/2 empty schools (KWCulbert ES), located outside of the communities they so desperately need to involve to be effective. 

We need to figure out how to address these two BIG issues.  IMHO, the rest are just scraps.  They won’t make a big difference either way.

@echyone - Go to any LCPS after the buses have left (at least at the elementary level) and you’ll find virtually all teachers still there working for a couple of hours longer.  Then they go home and continue to do more work at home, grading papers, writing lesson plans, etc.  Then they often go off to their second or third job because they can’t afford to live on what they make.

If you want to bring logic and math into it, the average number of years teaching experience in suburban environments (according to the NCES) is 14.1 years.  So why would you compare teacher salary to the average of a new college grad with 0 years of experience?  That’s a bogus argument.

The median salary in the U.S. for people with 10-19 years experience is $72k (according to Payscale.com).  If we use your rationale, then teachers working 10 months should be making $60k.  With the current LCPS pay scale, teachers here don’t hit $60k until they have around 30 years of experience.

If you factor in cost of living, since it’s 32.5%-40% more expensive than the average of the country to live here (according to Best Places and City Data), then for 10 months of work, based on the average experience, teachers should be making $79,500 just to be on par with “average”.

Sounds to me like they’re nearly 40% underpaid.  But no, you’d begrudge them small increases and find them to be making “more than enough”.  You completely disrespect the personal and monetary sacrifices they make to teach YOUR kids.

@echyone…Who are the"we” that you represent?  Grizzled and crotchety old Loudoun?  All I was trying to say is that if Loudoun doesn’t adjust its mindset about the treatment of its teachers, the teachers will go elsewhere.  It’s you and your “we” that gets teachers upset.  I could be fine without the step increase and only getting a COLA each year; I know what I walked into as a teacher.  It’s the old Loudoun “we” and their terrible attitude towards teachers that is going to start the teacher exodus.  Don’t confuse the teachers with you and your old school “we’s” hate towards Hatrick and his budget.  Don’t forgot, it is old Loudoun and the good ‘ol boy network that put him there in the first place.

Contrary to arguments here, I would argue that teachers do NOT get more than their “fair share”.  (@echyone)  How can you take an annualized average number for college graduates (nationally) and apply it locally to Loudoun?  Maybe i’m missing something in your numbers, can you explain to me how you came to this conclusion?  Is there nothing else that should be taken into consideration?

The teacher contract should be changed from 7.5 to 8 hours (hopefully this would eliminate the rhetoric). There are various occupations where people work a set 8 hour shift and other occupations where you are considered “salaried”. The people who work a set number of hours do so based on the job-enough said. Salaried employees are still paid based on a 40 hour work week (it’s the law), but because it is a salaried position they are able to work beyond 40 hours without overtime. I’m know there is flexibility with all occupations in terms of hours worked and benefits of job. The difference with public employees is that their paychecks are derived from the collection of taxes. We are the debates from the private employees who companies wastefully spend and invest money which causes people to lose their jobs and impacts their raises. If you don’t like your private industry job and you think public employees have it “so easy” and are overpaid, then resign and find a job in the public sector. Have a great day, folks!

Looks like once again the less intelligent teachers fall for Hatrick’s us against them rhetoric.

The Average Starting Salary for a College Graduate was $50,034 in 2010 (I could not find more recent information). That was for 12 months of work. That equates to $41,695 in 10 months. So it looks like the Average teacher here in Loudoun County does better than Average.

Stop your whining about the teachers here not getting paid enough. They get more than enough.

Once again, people are taking a look at one bad experience, people have created vague generalizations about the work teachers do.  But I admit, it is a fun game to play.  Let’s start with all the proud government employees who work more days with longer hours.  I guess you are not taking into account the amount of time you are sitting in your cubicle surfing the internet or standing by the water cooler/coffee machine.  How do you guys get paid to shuffle the same papers through the shredder each day?  How many times a week do you ask somebody to punch you in because you will be a little bit late?  Also, I’ve never called a government office after 5pm and had somebody pick up.  You are all lazy.

That’s how we play this game right?

Well, here it starts again, teacher bashing…to those who complain that the teachers leave “as soon as the busses leave”, they are most likely going home to greet their own children. I can assure you that when they get home..they are doing more work. Report cards are usually done at home and take several hours to complete, grading of papers, planning for the next day, week and month…and no I am not a teacher. I find it really sad that the same people who complain about giving a teacher a pay increase are the same people who complain when their little darlings do poorly on some standardized test or don’t get into Virginia Tech…and then blame the teachers!

I work so hard for seven and a half hours a day. Sure, much of that time is spent on the web and chatting up the hot teacher down the hall.  Teaching the same thing over and over again takes a lot of brain power, believe me.  I spend my summers working on my tan.

Pay me more or I will scream that all of you are destroying the children’s future. I am a God-like figure and deserve to be treated like one.  Give me my money, who cares if old people need to sell and move to Nebraska.

Instead of teachers socializing during resource time…maybe they should grade some papers

I am another parent who raised two through loudoun schools(and I attended as well); the schools are empty as soon as the kids are gone and u definitely cannot reach any teachers,the leave quickly. Btw I also substituted in a few schools, the teachers seemed to work 7.5 hours, not 10 or 11. But,barring the exaggerations
And generalizations, I respect most of the teachers and staff at lcps…but it glamorizing and idolizing the teachers is wrong. In every profession there are the competent, incompetent,bad,good…. so lets stop pretending every teacher should or is working every moment of their day. Btw my kids used to tell me when their teachers were getting married,looking for new jobs,real estate and other. How did they know????? Teachers are spending class time surfing the web doing personal business…kids go up to teacher to ask a question…they see the screen. So.give me a break.

*their

echyone….where the heck did your kids go?  Come on by my school 3-4 hours after the kids leave any day of the week and you will find many teachers still in there rooms working. The ones that left?  They left with big tote bags filled with enough work to keep them up past 11 that they will start after helping their own kids with homework, getting dinner, giving baths and bedtime. Teachers work long hours. It’s a fact. More than enough to make up for the summer which by the way we are NOT paid for.

Also..I don’t see how my attitude stinks. We’re simply discussing facts regarding the pay attitude in your region. Location really has nothing to do with dedication to teaching. There are wonderful schools, wonderful students, and wonderful towns all over the country. How does one pick? I see nothing “evil” about taking salary into consideration. ...especially when the ability to survive off a particular salary is questionable.

Scott York’s bully cloned school board promises to cut the budget.  Watch closely as they come up with nothing.  Thanks for nothing Scott York.

@As a teacher….

Give us a break. Two of my kids have gone through LCPS with a third in 8th grade. I know exactly what is going on in the schools. Go into any building shortly after the buses pull out and see if you can find a teacher.

Don’t get me wrong…with the economy being the way it is I have no doubt filling positions isn’t an issue ANYWHERE right now. That being said, I’d be curious to see your turnover rate once the economy improves. Everybody doesn’t need to be the highest paid teacher in the world, but there is such a thing as “too low.” Your salaries match rural areas in Pennsylvania, but you’re an expensive high cost metropolitan area. I suspect Loudoun used to be a cheaper rural area with rural salaries. As the area developed and became more expensive, you never increased your teacher salaries to match the higher cost of living. To me looking in from the outside, Fairfax is more of a rip off. That place is just so expensive, and I don’t see how all those first year teachers are making it on a 44k salary. There was a time back around 2000 where Loudoun had trouble getting teachers. We used to say up here “If you can’t find work go to Loudoun, VA they hire everybody” ..even though it’s a perfectly nice area. I suspect you will see a return to those times in the near future if your salary structure doesn’t improve.

@returning home

And how do you justify the discrepancy in the number of days worked?

@We don’t need you and others…I would like to say that you shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth.  You have lost/are losing/will continue to lose good teachers either to other districts or to burn out as they continue to work other jobs in supporting their families.  It is RARE that I put in less than 50-60 hours a week for teaching and that is before I go work a second job on the weekends.  You’re right it is a nice place to live and I’m lucky that I’m young enough to have the energy and “youthful ambition” to keep trucking along.  However, a couple more years with the absence in pay raise and the community taking teachers for granted and I will be elsewhere too.  I’m sure that you all will have a witty remark about how I must not be great with this attitude and you would be better off without me and people like me, but you better believe that if you asked your kids and knew the work I did, they’d be pretty mad at you for running me and my colleagues out.  Careful what you take for granted.

@You decide…the teacher contract is 7.5 hours per day. Please adjust your info and repost if you want to be truthful. Still not an 8 hour standard but the “on time” is that of a factory worker much more than the average office worker that makes MUCH more. JMHO.

@Chris—Then by all means, stay right where you are, as we do not need your attitude and convictions here in Loudoun and Fairfax. Contrary to what you believe, there is no shortage of teaching excellence here in Loudoun because, as you’ve stated, Loudoun is a wonderful place to live and work. The best teachers I know do so because they love the job, the kids, the schools (which are for the most part new and beautiful), have an easy commute, can schedule their job around their own kid’s schedule, and are able to enjoy summers off with their own kids.

And for the record, I personally know a few six-figure elementary school teachers in New York and New Jersey. Similar to you, their attitude absolutely stinks, and do not seem nearly as capable as my own kid’s teachers here in Loudoun, who probably makes about 1/2 the salary. High wages does not a good teachers make.

@you decide - You actually think teachers in Loudoun work a maximum of 7 hours per day?  If you, you are completely out-of-touch with reality.  It’s extremely common for a teacher to put in 10-11 hour days.  On top of that, they have little to no break time during the day.  Finding the time to quickly eat lunch and even to use the bathroom is difficult.  Anybody who thinks teachers put in fewer hours than your typical 40-hours-a-week office job don’t know what the teaching entails.

PS..I couldn’t believe how low Fairfax pays for such an expensive area either. How do you even find people to teach there at all? It’s a shame..I really do love that area. I’m surprised your college students don’t all up and relocate upon graduation with those salary guides.

I think you people are insane for not paying your teachers more. I’m looking down there, and took a peak at your salary guide. Quite frankly, I don’t know how your attract teaching applicants at all. It’s a great area, but sadly you won’t be seeing my application anytime soon. I’ll go bankrupt if I taught in NOVA!

Asburn teacher - just to be fair, the teachers contract call for 197 days of work with a maximum 7 hour day.  25% less hours than a “standard” 240 day schedule with an 8 hour day. Surely you need to recognize that these terms are fairly generous?

It cost $237.00 per studenta month for full day kindergarten. You want it for your child you pay the 237. By the way pay the 4 dollars a day for your kid to ride the school bus. As I see the law we have to provide for special needs with bus service but I did not see where we have to provide for every kid.

Blaming everything on Hatrick and whining is a scapegoat method that only Republican bully’s use.  Looks like the School Board is following in Scott Yorks footsteps and becoming community bullies too.  Next time just use a baseball bat when you hit the community over the head.

To Tired of Winers (whiners):  “Not using the students to give there teachers raises and as a pawn for more money.”  It’s “their” not “there.”  Once again prooving the need for a good education.  In addition, not a single teacher in this county (as well as others I might add) has “a full three months off” during the summer.  Oh I wish it were true!!  We stay after the kids leave for the summer and w/continuing education, school improvements plans, etc. we all go back to school much earlier than the students as well.

Tired of Winers - Perhaps if you had better paid teachers you would know that you really meant to spell it WHINERS.  Unless of course you are tired of people who drink wine, in which case it would be WINOS.

Still concerned about teachers salaries? Yet, there are schools to the west and north of Loudoun that are riffing as many as 30 some employees or freeezing salaries. Along with many other county workers not having raises and needing to pay into there retirement. As far as full time kindgarten, there are currently many places that do it. Oh, I forgot that the teachers might actually have to work the whole year instead of having three months off. Even though everyone else that works has to work a FULL year. It is time for the schools to figure out what is important and place the students first. Not using the students to give there teachers raises and as a pawn for more money. Work with the budget you have. Other places would beg to have the money the schools in this county have. DEAL WITH THE CUTS.

Typical Hatrick-style hysteria.  I have seen no one suggest cutting the schools completely, let alone by any significant amount.  Everyone, especially those in the school system themselves, knows of the continuing waste and bloated administration at LCPS.  It’s time to cut the fat.

Why don’t we just cut the schools altogether and then we wouldn’t have to pay any taxes.  Keep cutting you short sighted brains.

Here’s an idea - don’t educate any of our kids, that way we won’t have any school budget.  How does that sound to you?  Let’s complain and whine about school budgets while the chinese and indians kick our tails and walk away with our wealth.

Full day kindergarten by LCPS would not be “free”.  No public school is “free”, our tax money supports it and right now using tax money to provide a full day program would not be a reasonable way to spend our money. Where exactly would you house these students? Are you willing to renovate nearly ALL the LCPS elementary schools to accommodate the program? And all the extra teachers and support staff to do this now? As far as “at risk” students, well better to serve them while they are young because it costs more money to serve them when they are older and far behind. I fully support the full day program in the future, with careful planning and a time line that is not rushed.

Yep Sam and that’s the problem….the district cost looks like it would be free, but it isn’t.  What about those schools that don’t have the capacity to have a full-day program?  Are you going to tell them “oh sorry, maybe next year” or are you going to start putting out money the district doesn’t have to build onto existing schools or rent trailers?  What about those unstable schools (as far as attendance numbers)—one year they are under capacity in a year or two they are over—-now the district is stuck trying to figure out if they should bus out some kindergarteners or again build.  The cost is NOT free——the taxpayers will have to pick up the tab.  If parents really want it, then let them pay for it.  Otherwise let one of the parents stay home and work with their own children——worked with mine just fine.

Full day kindergarten by LCPS: Free (Would Be)
Full day kindergarten by Private Center: $300+/wk

Full day kindergarten is an “entitlement”?  Wow.  Entitlement is offering it for “at risk” students and not any others.