The Loudoun County School Board made three motions to cut more into their fiscal 2013 budget during a Feb. 14 meeting after much dismay from board members and school staff. The meeting heated up so much that Tom Reed (At-Large) left the boardroom before the meeting adjourned. The changes would offer almost $2.4 million in cuts with the loss of 40 newly proposed full-time equivalent positions. What seemed like an ambush to some members of the board and staff, left many unprepared and without budget information to give other members definite answers to what the cuts would do.
Bill Fox (Leesburg) first motioned to reduce the new staffing for large schools that would cut four positions totaling almost $338,000 in savings. The amendments he moved during the Feb. 14 meeting were also moved in the Feb. 7 meeting, but were later retracted due to uncertainty of the effect the cuts would make and were “not given proper consideration” according to Fox.
“All of the board members have those amendments, they were already provided to everybody. There’s nothing new here. There shouldn’t be any issue of not having been able to see the motion in advance. Everybody had these a week ago,” Fox said.
Fox’s motion, in turn, spurred an almost 30-minute battle over Robert’s Rules to see if amending the proposed budget, which was approved on Feb. 7 and sent to the Board of Supervisors, was even legal. Fox’s motion came around 10:30 p.m. and was not on the agenda for the evening. Supervisor Dr. Edgar Hatrick’s presentation of the Capital Improvement Program and the Capital Asset Preservation Program were on the docket to be discussed, but were pushed until next week’s meeting—though staff and members were not made aware of the change ahead of time.
According to Chairman Eric Hornberger (Ashburn), during the Feb. 7 meeting Hatrick misinformed board members about Fox’s motion “which prejudiced consideration by the board.” He also said there is always a provision for new and old business during the meetings – which is when Fox’s motion occurred.
“While I can appreciate the perspective by some in the public that advanced notice should have been given of items under consideration by the board, under the circumstances, this simply was not reasonably possible within the limits of the School Board by-laws as last revised by the previous School Board,” Hornberger said in a Facebook post. ” … the will of the majority ultimately cannot be thwarted by the confines of an agenda, misinformation provided at the moment, or the relative inexperience on the dais by newer board members.”
As questions started to rise out of each position put on the chopping block, the more confused staff became.
“We’re at a real disadvantage because we don’t have any of our budget stuff here,” Hatrick said. “Staff has been sitting here tonight trying to follow what was being done. We meet to set the agenda, we publish the agenda. It talked about CIP or CAPP, neither of which did we address tonight. It’s really hard for us to help if we’re not privy to the fact that you were going to reopen the operating budget. Apparently some of you knew that was going to occur. But certainly the staff didn’t. I hope you’ll consider that in the future as a courtesy to staff because it’s pretty clear you were going to do it.”
The first set of cuts include one high school dean, three elementary school librarians and a high school library assistant.
“What you are saying to the six schools that have over 1,000 students, one librarian - you handle it,” Hatrick said.
Hornberger said last night’s meeting was the first opportunity for the board to bring up new issues and Robert’s Rules didn’t apply in this particular case. They were not rescinding the budget, he said, but amending it. Hornberger said that there would need to be a two-third’s vote for the motion to be carried.
“I am in absolute opposition only because my comments earlier suggested that we have not been as transparent as we should be with the public. We’ve opened this back up at 10:10 at night is irresponsible I think,” Jennifer Bergel (Catoctin) said. Reed shared the same sentiments – which he showed by leaving the meeting early after voting.
Bergel mentioned that cutting these new jobs would adversely affect the growing county and that with these cuts the schools won’t be able to keep up with the growth.
A good portion of the budget discussion was spent fighting over how motions should be presented prior to meetings - for example being presented in writing for other members to look over. Hornberger hinted at the fact that Bergel hadn’t put her motion through about a 2 percent raise for employees after she was made aware of the county’s budget presentation during the Feb. 7 meeting.
Fox also motioned to cut another 12 full-time equivalent positions that would result in saving almost $548,000. The jobs include custodians, technology assistants, guidance counselors and an assistant athletic director.
Kevin Kuesters (Broad Run) also motioned to reduce administrative staffing that would create 23 new full-time equivalent positions with a cost savings of $1.5 million.
With the newly proposed cuts and the loss of new jobs, Fox said that many of the other staffing in the schools could be shuffled around to make-do with any lacking areas of concern.
“This is just a proposed budget, nothing is final. We are not in danger of schools opening with no custodians,” Fox said. “If we get further information that shows conclusively that we will not be able to have the number of custodians we need to operate LCPS then we can certain reevaluate in reconciliation. The staff will have ample time to examine the issue between no and the time our reconciliation discussions end.”
When Reed asked Hornberger if he was aware that this issue was to be brought up tonight and why other members of the board were not informed, Hornberger replied that he “didn’t feel it was necessary to answer the question.”
Looks like FLES was the token sacrificial lamb to quiet down the budget cutters here. Balance the school budget without a increase in taxes! How many streams of revenue does the school system bilk? The Feds, the state, the county, the lottery. Take public safety out and 83 cents of every property tax dollar is being spent on schools and the school debt. So where are you going to get the money for ipads and full day kindergarden. Besides there should be a amendment that any school surplus funds at the end of the year go towards the school debt. This is not a slush fund to be used at Hatrick, the school board or BOS discretion.
What happened to the other 75 million in cuts? A 11 million dollar reduction in a 86 million dollar Increase is not a cut its a 75 million dollat increase! Did Kuesters and Fox get scared of the incumbents? What about the other 4 new board members, why haven’t they proposed cutting this gross pig of a budget. What ever happened to outsourceing the school busses? Is this another case where Ralph will say the previous board looked into it and he will vote against it without further review sounds like shades of HS-8. How about cutting benefits for part time employees after all it’s a school system not a benefit center. What the hell is Mr. Hatrick driving a rented Corbra. Revise that postions salary and perks to start with gee willie! Phaseing in full day kindergarden looks good except at the beginning the full day classes will be where the room already exists. After that the buildings need to be built at increased taxpayer expense.
Cut the retirement? Yes or let the teachers pay into it. They will get their Virginia school retirement theirsocial security which are paid for and a 403 if take advantage of these lopsided rues now in place. They will make more money in retirement than teaching that’s a good way to keep em on the job. Triple dippers NICE!!!
@ Crymea Hatrick
Give me one good reason to cut teachers’ retirement. They are already under paid, and, with people like you, underappreciated. These teachers do an unbelievable job keeping the schools in this county one of the many reasons people want to live here, and you want to cut one of the few perks they have. How would you feel if you put in hours upon hours of your own time, not get paid for it, buy a portion of your own supplies to do your job and not get reimbursed for much of it, and then have shortsighted, narrow-minded people suggest that your retirement benefit should be cut, among other things that would hinder your ability to do your job well. I would assume you would not appreciate that too much, and you may even be upset about it. I would be willing to bet you wouldn’t last a day doing the job that any of the school employees do, especially the teachers, and perform at the level the majority the school staff performs at. I’ll not argue that Hatrick’s car allowance is a place that cuts could be made, as it would not affect the performance of the school, but I will argue until the end about any cuts that would hinder the ability of our teachers to do their job and take offense to anyone ignorant enough to show such disrespect for the people who educate and shape the future leaders of this country.
It takes a 2/3 vote to reopen a issue within the board. They had 2/3’s. I fail to see why the stopped there should be another 75 million dollars cut starting with teachers retirement, part time employee benefits and Hatricks car allowance!
@ get a clue
I wish you would. You apparently know nothing of what these ”school system employee(s) who bemoans a 197 day a year , 7 hour a day job with full benefits as a great injustice” do at the schools. First of all, I know many individuals that are elementary school teachers in the school system. I don’t know where you get your hours from, but teachers put in well more than 7 hours a day and 40 hours a week. The teachers are at school at 7 am to prepare for the day and great your children as they arrive at school. They then provide what is credited as one of the finest public school educations in the nation for the extent of the “7 hour” school day. They then proceed to take your children out to their buses or cars to go home. If they are lucky, this is another 45 minutes, but now that the wonderful school board wants to cut the number of buses running to lower budgets, the teachers will be taking care of the children for an extended amount of time while waiting on busses to return for second pick-ups, time they would have already been using as time to meet with their grade teams and preparing lesson plans for the next day based on what was done that day. So after the second pick-up, the teachers then get to go in and perform the previously mentioned tasks, which will often last for 2-3 additional hours. Upon arriving home, they will spend some time with their family, and proceed to go through papers, testing, evaluations, and preparation for the next day (supplies for the next days lessons and finalizing lesson plans that are engaging for the students), only to repeat the process the next day. And that is just for the normal work days. That does not include all the work that these teachers put in to keep the policies and practices within the schools and classrooms up to date and functioning, such as PBIS, RtL, ELL, and others. Oh, and the 197 day work year? Again, I believe you are misinformed. Teachers may not be paid for the 10 weeks off they get in the summer, or go to the school for the 1 week for spring break or other holidays during the school year, but trust me, they are working. They have training in the summer, work on grades and papers over holidays during the school year, and continue to come up with new and exciting ideas to use in their classrooms. I know what you’re thinking, principals and librarians, and other administrative personal only work 197 days a year too. Not so much. The principals are actually a 360 day a year job, as are librarians and other administration positions. They are performing training, going to training, working on hiring, going over ever smaller budgets for their school or program for the upcoming year, and more. It is upon the backbone of these employees and their commitment, not only to their profession, but to upholding the high standard of education everyone in this county expects from this county. There is a reason so much of the county budget goes to schools. Look at the population density of the county. Look at the number of school age children in the county. Look at the number of schools we have in the county. If you want the high quality education, be prepared to pay for it. This is the “richest” county in the country, and I don’t believe the schools have not been living within their means. If you own a house in this county but can’t afford the property taxes to fund the schools of the county, perhaps it is you that is not living within your means.
Since the budget had been previously voted on and THIS meeting was supposed to be about the CIP then NO he was not prepared to discuss the budget. He was prepared to discuss the CIP…I really don’t care if something was cut or not. THAT is not the point, you do not vote on something and then a week later decide it is not what you really wanted to vote for..if there was ANY question about the budget and if ANY board member had questions that remained NO VOTE should have taken place.
Why wasn’t Hatrick ready for his budget to be cut. Isn’t that what the meeting was about. He only has a year to come up with the budget so you think he would be well versed and have all the materials needed at a budget meeting. Maybe a ploy by Hatrict Oh they blindsided me I was not ready for a question BOO HOO!
Get us to the Sanitorium quickly! There, he and “flocking” friends will give sermons and we won’t have to think for ourselves anymore. Whew.
When Hatrick realized that he gave FAULSE info on a budget motion previously, HE should have brought it back up with the correction. But he didnt. Instead the SB caught the mistake (or lie) and reintroduced the motion during old business. Seems reasonable to me…
If Reed did not know that something was going to come up, why did he consult the SB attorney about something being brought up for further consideration?
A short recess could have allowed the various entities to go to their cars or offices to get their materials. Sheridan probably had her materials with her.
Bergel apparently had an Athletic Director there
to speak against homeschool players. The legislative liasion people were there. Was this item on the agenda? Had she notified anyone else that she wanted to bring this up again
Actually Santourm has this right and we should derail public education. It cost to much. Your right about my budget I guess Hatrick should be excused from being prepared just like the tardy student. It’s Ok to be a budget maker and not know your stuff. Instead of a increase he should have started with the status quo and cut. Adding 86 million and then having 11 taken off the 86 million is still a 75 million dollar increase. Start with his car allowance of $11,370 dollars a year. What’s he driving a Bentley? Give him the Federal 51 cents a mile to use his own car
Might be easy to memorize a front to back, single page document since an average number of items to memorize in a series = 7-10.
Instead of sharing love on Valentine’s Day with family, these hidden agenda SB’s demonstrated a lack of love for public education.
Why wasn’t Hatrick prepared. I know when I submit a budget I have it memorized front and back. if he isn’t prepared to back up his budget where has he been, China?
@ venomousinsight@aol.com ..... you want to elect these board members for not telling the public nor their other board memembers prior to the motion about the budget cuts? Why? Seems very sketchy to me. Sounds like GOP politics to me, not transparent at all. If they played by the rules then this would be a non-issue, but having it done at 10pm on Valentine’s Night after not announcing it, and responding to a questions asking “why it was not mentioned earlier” to response was “i do not have to answer that question” screams bad motives, bad agenda, and horrible people. This is a shame. While I am not a fan of a certain someone going overseas (i.e. China) for his work, he did the right thing in standing up for his workers by correctly saying that he knew nothing about it. It seems like Republicans are the only ones who are ok with shady things within this government, Board of Zoning Apeals included.
If Hat Trick and his croonies don’t like the way it is with the new school board they can resign. Would save a large portion of the bloated budget. Hooray for the school board that finally has the guts to stand up against the prima dona Hat Trick.
Finally a school board that doesn’t follow the pied piper!
If I could I would vote these school board members for life.
Great Job School board!
See article in today’s W.Post, Loudoun section.
Also, for all - “Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause.”
@ Ashamed Republican
You are not an ashamed republican. Just a moron. So how is a $75 mm increase in school spending a “cut”? I bet you are a school system employee who bemoans a 197 day a year , 7 hour a day job with full benefits as a great injustice. Dude, get a clue. We need to live within our means. And this means school systems, too. A $75 mm incrase is pretty generous on the operating side. (I did not even mention a 1/4 billion dollar INCREASE in capital spending and Loudoun’s first $100 mm high school)
Dump Hornberger.
In case you do not know, staff lies and so do other government officials. I believe they think they must lie as it is necessary for the greater good. “They” know what the greater good is and sometimes the lies are just too obvious. When caught, they circle the wagon and protect their “own” regardless.
NICE TO SEE THAT FAIRFAX COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD APPRECIATES THEIR VOTERS, TEACHERS AND STUDENTS!
LCSB SHOULD TAKE NOTES!
School Board member Ryan McElveen (At-large) characterized the School Board’s budget as proof that county leadership truly cared about public education.
“I think it’s important as we discuss the budget to reflect on what happened earlier this week in Loudoun County, which I think was a travesty for education in Northern Virginia and Virginia as a whole,” he said. “For those of you who don’t know, the Loudoun County School Board cut their budget by $11 million. … I think by contrasting Loudoun County and Fairfax County tonight we see that Fairfax County, and this School Board does care about education. … I don’t think we throw everything into this budget.
http://www.fairfaxtimes.com/article/20120217/NEWS/702179696/1117/vote-on-schools-budget-rankles-feathers&template=fairfaxTimes
@Food for Thought: This is actually enlightening—Thanks!
I don’t wish to be the pessimist but this might have to be washed so that neo-cons don’t think this is subversive. Coming from a Northern European socialist country and all. It preaches to my choir, so to speak. But I suspect some are thinking there is a renegade “Finland” school district in Loudoun County that is attempting to subvert free enterprise, intolerance and dogma.
Just my sarcastic, grain of truth, opinion.
I will enjoy reading your link.
Thanks again.
Way to Go LCSB stated: Hatrick/staff blanketly dismissed the cuts in Fox’s original motions stating they would not meet Standards of Quality (SOQ), so he withdrew them. Fox then researched and found Hatrick/staff were not telling the truth. Most of his proposals were, in fact, consistent with SOQs. So when will the Hatrick impeachment proceedings begin?
1st, Hatrick and staff can not dismiss motions. They can advise and they believed that some of the cuts would violate the SOQ. The cuts were combined in one motion. Included in one of the motion that Fox withdrew was a cut of 3 deans that already exist. He withdrew the motion to get more information. Question - is he not responsible to vet his own motions? He is an SB member? How irresponsible was it for him to propose cutting positions without researching the SOQ’s and other ramifications?!?!
Next, I did watch that meeting and I believe (but I don’t have time to go back and listen to the tape right now) that the SB members agreed that they would have their proposed amendments to staff by Thursday or Friday prior to the Feb 7th meeting so that staff could research the proposed cuts. I do not believe that these original amendments were sent to staff for research. ALSO, the SB members agreed that they would also copy each other on the proposed cuts by Thurs/Fri so there would be time to review before the big budget meeting on the 7th. Time after time during that meeting on the 7th, Bergel, Sheridan, and Reed stated that they had not received the proposed amendments until 3:30 PM on the afternoon of the 7th!
So, staff and some SB members were caught off guard on the 7th and again on the 14th.
Regarding SOQs - they are a MINIMUM set by the state. Part of the reason why LCPS is successful is that we don’t just go for the MINIMUM!
In addition, in the past 5 years, the state dropped the SOQs, which means that the standards have been lowered very recently.
Regarding the cuts to Champe (the new HS) - Fox says he didn’t violate SOQs in his cuts, but he has severly damaged the guidance and front office staffing, to a crippling effect. Services to the students,etc will have to be severly cut if the staffing is not brought back during reconciliation.
Question - is this school board going to cut all of our schools to the bare minimum? Because that seems to be the message in these particular cuts. Question - were Fox and Kuesters just flexing their muscles to get back at Hatrick and staff? Not only is that very unprofessional, but they are playing a very dangerous game with our children’s education. Childhood is once in a lifetime, their school years are once in a lifetime. Our children do not have time to wait while these adults get their sh*t together!!
26 Amazing Facts About Finland’s Unorthodox Education System
“Since it implemented huge education reforms 40 years ago, Finland’s school system has consistently come at the top for the international rankings for education systems.
So how do they do it?
It’s simple — by going against the evaluation-driven, centralized model that much of the Western world uses.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1
and oh yes…might I suggest that at the next meeting the members of the school board apologize to staff, each other and the citizens who elected. The behavior was appalling.
More Gov’t, Please: Isn’t Google translator handy. Well done!
Your comment might have been better served engaging this article:
“Voices unite to save elementary foreign language programs”
http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/voices_unite_to_save_elementary_foreign_language_programs123/
Well played. I DID pick on you. :)
Yes, I am left. But I have never known a right wing French speaker—oxymoron don’t you think?
Trust! Here! Here!
Here is the problem with what happened the other night: We voters elected these individuals to do a job for US…maybe the person we voted for did not win but the fact remains that they represent ALL of the people in their district as well as the county as a whole. Now, since they represent us, all of us, it is their duty to do so with integrity. They do not have to agree on every issue, nor they do not have to like one another but what they DO have to have respect for the others that are also representing us. Clearly this was not demonstrated the other night. There is nothing wrong with asking questions or doing research, they should do that. It is wrong to just accept the budget presented by an administrator at face value. It is the job of the administrator to put in all the things he or she believes is necessary or even things that are not necessary if it is perceived to be in the best interest of the school system. Much like a child’s Christmas list..ask for the most and be happy with what you end up with..if you don’t ask you surely won’t get anything you desire. Now, the budget had been voted upon, with some changes but voted and approved. Apparently some were not happy with answers they received and wanted to pursue it further..fine. HOWEVER…this should have been made clear to ALL members and staff so that ALL involved could do their own research and prepare questions. Why? Because it is in the best interest of US, the citizens of the county. This is basic trust. The budget process always brings out emotions because everyone thinks their “thing” should not be cut. Reasonable cuts may in fact be necessary…just like with the Christmas list. There is a limited amount of money available..some things will need to go. We need to TRUST that the people that we voted for will make changes that are responsible. They need to do this without backstabbing and ignorance. The Chairman, Mr. Fox and Mr. Keusters need to make sure that in the future they notify US the public and the others that are representing US if a change is to be made in the agenda, at the very least with major changes like the budget…that is the honest thing to do. Had I known that the budget was going to be discussed again, I may have wanted to be a speaker or gone to the meeting or tuned it in on TV. If I went to the meeting wanting to know about the CIP, I would have wasted my time. Hopefully this has been a learning tool for ALL involved. The board members do not have to like each other or their views but in order to have an effective school system, they MUST work together and communicate.
Sir, you cannot possibly know Ms. Sheridan if you think she has no mind of her own. Too bad she is not the Chairperson. She has integrity, a clear understanding of the issues and the budget process, and she knows how to run a meeting.
The LEA is a kind of union, the closest thing teachers and other public school employees have in Loudoun. However the biggest difference between the LEA and a real union is that 1-Unions have the right to collectively bargain. Also, the LEA cannot legally go on strike. So the biggest two things that unions can do are removed. So the only thing they are left to do is to mobilize during meetings, and coordinate clothing. If you want to compare real unions with the LEA, just look up the CWA, IWW, CIA, Knights of Labor, and other unions (historical or current). I highly doubt the LEA would nor could ever pull a sit-in or mobilize a general strike.
I wasn’t sure how I felt about a virtually “all new” School Board, until now. Keep it up guys! It’s about time Hatrick faced some criticism from within his own ranks. We *can* have good, AFFORDABLE schools here in Loudoun County. Thank you for your hard work to limit and more wisely spend my hard-earned tax dollars.
StonerBridgeParent: Well articulated and appreciated comment. I was goading for brighter insight from someone. It was not the best message. I detest bigots and racists—apologies.
Is it transparency that is the problem or giving of money? I agree with some that say the County needs to catch up to the previous rate of growth in Loudoun. Meanwhile data tells us that this is one of the best school systems in the Commonwealth. So we have a County with a conservative government trying to keep taxes down; catch up to the 2009 growth bubble and maintain one of the best school systems in the State. If it’s a matter of Robert’s Rules or transparency, I think we are loosing sight of the forest through the trees.
Mary M makes a good point. Hatrick/staff blanketly dismissed the cuts in Fox’s original motions stating they would not meet Standards of Quality (SOQ), so he withdrew them. Fox then researched and found Hatrick/staff were not telling the truth. Most of his proposals were, in fact, consistent with SOQs. So when will the Hatrick impeachment proceedings begin?
Unions!!! Unions!!! There, I said it!
LOL…now that’s funny. Nicely played sir/madam!
Anti-LCPS people: I suspect most of you are natives and/or without a child in the system. If you do have a child in the system and your unhappy, go back to your cave and home school your child—continue to propagate your ignorance. With about 1/4 to 1/3 of the total County population in the school system I’m pretty sure your in the minority. Your opinions are based on stereotypic, political bias, dogma and ignorance.
Wow. Sweeping generalizations like that are usually reserved for politicians, religious figures, bigots, racists and school officials. Not implying you’re any of those but hey… you do cast a wide net just as they do.
As for me, you’re wrong on all accounts. I’m not even close to anti-LCPS, I do have children in the public schools but I’d be lying if I didn’t declare that I can’t want for them to graduate so I don’t have to invest my time in over watch of the public school system any longer. Here’s the thing for me. I work hard, as no doubt you do. I’m tired of giving my hard earned money to a government, any government, where they are not accountable for the stewardship of my tax dollars. I’m all for paying taxes for the public good. I just expect said government to use that money wisely. Heck, I even don’t insist on what they spend the money on provided it meets some measure of logic and common sense. I’ve totally given up on the Federal and State governments. Waste of time. However, a local government, where these politicians live, makes it easier to create inflection points of common sense and accountability with relatively few people. Picking your battles as it were.
One other factor, my wife and I vote against each and every school board bond proposal for a new school in this county for this simple reason, we do not feel we can trust this organization. We’ve lived other places where there was transparency and an instillation of trust. And the schools received our full support with little reservation. Not this school system…not this school superintendent. Just say no is our motto…
Anti-LCPS people: I suspect most of you are natives and/or without a child in the system. If you do have a child in the system and your unhappy, go back to your cave and home school your child—continue to propagate your ignorance. With about 1/4 to 1/3 of the total County population in the school system I’m pretty sure your in the minority. Your opinions are based on stereotypic, political bias, dogma and ignorance.
Unions!!! Unions!!! There, I said it!
Isn’t their a process to call for their removal, like impeachment? They need to be held accountable.
The only thing that needs to be addressed is why the Public, ALL the school board members and school staff were not aware that this was going to be discussed while other board members were clearly prepared. It’s millions of dollars. I don’t care what your political affiliation is. This is a public school system and the public has a right to know what is going to be on the agenda. Hornberger and Fox need to get booted off the board.
Any person found to be providing misinformation should be budget cut #1. Why is such an insider staff agenda tolerated?
Enough, LEA is the local chapter of the NEA (National Education Association), which is dedicated to helping Education. While it is a Union in some areas, it’s not here. Just setting the record straight. It’s always been a thorn in Hatricks side…for that matter the entire LCPS administration, so don’t think they’re working to help him!
West Bus - they must be confusing union with the Loudoun Education Association (LEA) and Foundation. You have to admit, that org functions exactly like a union. And it very effectively mobilizes it’s members during budget season to stir up Hatrick’s hysterical message: failure to fund the full budget will “dismantle” the school system. Enough!
WHY, OH WHY, DOES NOONE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE NO UNIONS? NONE…PLEASE READ ALL THE THREADS BEFORE RESPONDING! IF YOU ALL WANT A UNIONIZED PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, YOU WON’T FIND IT HERE!!
@More government please: the CNS link is right wing bias. I was interested in some educated, thought provoking banter. Go listen to your Fox News. So much for truth. I guess the general population of Loudoun lacks the intellectual stamina for just resolve.
@locosince2004, My grammer stinks, oh well, sorry if I disappoint but I’m a product of the government school system. Regardless, I work in the private industry and pay a ton of taxes to support the omnipresent governemnt.
Any way, union/collective barganing, a distinction without a difference. Taxpayers are still held hostage.
2080 paid hours vs 1,500, you do the math
I’m tired on the “bwahh” that teachers are underpaid. Bottom line: Teachers are well paid.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/dept-labor-public-school-teachers-are-highest-paid-state-workers-compensation-doubles
@ Proud Leesburg Guy - I have had the privilege of knowing Ms. Sheridan for almost a decade. One thing I have never known her to lack is an opinion. And, being generous to a fault, she is always willing to share it. Just ask her!
We still have 30 - 33% of Loudoun’s population under the age of 18. (US Census 210,11) I say let the County catch-up and maintain the highest level of public education. If growth slows so should education spending. But it will take a few years folks. If growth slows. It’s all about growth. Anyone got any data comparing what you pay for public education in Loudoun vs. private eduction elsewhere?
Regarding my child’s education: Does anyone know the bias of the following website? Who’s behind it etc?
http://www.loudountaxpayer.com
I want truth not partisan hyperbole. I also want my child to receive the best public education in the Country and I’m willing to pay for it responsibly.
Stupid partisans need not respond.
Thanks
The County is still playing catch-up from 2009 growth rates. We still have quite a few children in the pipe line. Let’s hope slower growth prevails for all. And we can maintain a superior education system in the long run.
Adding more cuts after the budget was given to the BOS last week….on V-day @ 10:30pm. Seems very sketch…why couldn’t they have done that when the budget was still being debated? Can we please have an honest and open government/BOS/School Board, and might as well as Board of Zonning Appeals as well. This is just another example of the general malfeasance of our government. It does not mean less government, but more effective, honest, and transparent government. This whole thing is a bunch of baloney, and will be challenged in court and overturned.
Alas more hyperbole!
What some of you fail to understand is that so long as this County continues to grow there will be more children to educate. It appears we are attracting the highest incomes in the Country. So you do the math. Don’t move to Loudoun and place demands on the public services and infrastructure unless you’re willing to pay for it. If your a native without children in the school system, well that’s tough. I’m sorry.
I am all for efficiencies, but I would rather have a County who’s spending on public education is commensurate with income levels.
Thanks Duplicity - “You want smarter better educated work force? Start paying for it”
It’s a shame that some people who comment against LCPS personnel have never been in the classroom, not that they’re interested in trying to undermine public schools in general. . . They try to reduce the conversation as if students, teachers, and bus drivers are automatons and live in isolation from business realities. I send lists for consideration in budgetary talks, support many of my class projects with my own funds, and relish graduate coursework for intrinsic and extrinsic reasons.
I love being in the “brain business” and would suggest that salaried employees who complain about teacher schedules ought to change jobs. Just please don’t spread venomous thoughts to us or your children; they need joy and learning in their lives today and in the future. That’s what we offer willingly!
Figures don’t lie but liars figure.
2010 presentation by Hatrick if budgets are cut:
•Diminished Student Achievement
•Inability to Recruit High-Quality Teachers
•Damaged LCPS Reputation
•Failure to Attract Business
None of those claim are true.
And my favorite from 2010 regarding a $20 Million surplus.
“The $20 million is an expected savings in the FY10 budget that could be used to help fund FY11. But it will be spoken for at the beginning of FY11,” Hatrick said March 22. “Every penny of that $20 million is spoken for.”
“We were told this money was for one-time purchases-things-and now we’re being told they are for people. I” Supervisor Stevens Miller (D-Dulles) said during the March 22 meeting.
Caught red handed. Enough said. Keep cutting.
Mr. or Mrs. Morroon
go to the WABE there you can add the numbers up for yourself. Include the 120 million school board debt payment and it’s 14,800 per student. Teachers average 86k and yes the retirement and social security are paid for. Your welcome
Hyperbole! Show me your statistics, mr. rathick.
Keep cutting School Board. We applaud you. The chicken littles will always be there screaming doom and gloom. You clearly understand that endless spending does not correlate to academic success but it does correlate to higher and higher taxes, mortgaging our childrens future.
Loudoun County ranked #1, again among 15 richest counties in America:
http://www.businessinsider.com/where-the-one-percent-live-the-15-richest-counties-in-america-2012-2?op=1
You want smarter better educated work force? Start paying for it; there are a few people in this County that can put up and shut up.
Competition in sports is one thing….when it comes to college admissions that is an entirely a different matter..if my child has a 3.6 in a school of 1600 vs a 3.6 in a school of 2500 that makes a HUGE difference in class rank…which may or may not make a difference in some colleges. I move here from FFX county. I did not want my kids to go to high school in such a large school (Westfield). I want them to be noticed as people not numbers. Yea, you could say well if you don’t make a sports team, marching band, the drama production or whatever, tough, that’s life…but high school is a time to explore these things and to expand your knowledge. It is not just about reading books and doing homework. Smaller schools just like smaller class size=better education
Actually if you add the school debt payment into the cost the average cost per studend is $14,000 a pop.
locosince2004, I don’t think anyone is suggesting schools the size of Lake Bradock or Westfield, but the standard needs to be bumped up to 2,000-2,200. That’s just economic reality large metro area school districts. Small schools is one of the reasons our taxes are so high.
Hey, even making a sports team in a 1,500 student school is tough. I’ve known a lot of neighborhood kids over the years who were cut. That’s life and I think it teaches them a good life lesson. If the parents want to assure their kids make the team, then maybe they should move to a rural school district where the high school size is 500 kids!
Good Points LoCo! But it seems the masses want to cut the school budgets at any cost without realizing there are tradeoffs to this. Every cut comes with a hidden price.
The large high schools are essentially pre-colleges. 200 spots at VT football, 40k students, so it is similar. We have more open space than fairfax and could plan a mega school easier. Putting multiple schools in one area such as Ashburn increases traffic too, the question is does the traffic situation scale with the size of school or with mutliple schools in one area. Common sense seems to say having multiple schools is worse, as you will have multiple choke points.
So where does this leave us? Demands are being made to cut, despite the ever growing population of students, which require more resources and teachers. It’s unrealistic to expect major cuts without affecting quality, something has to give. And we are all being dishonest if we don’t acknowledge that fact, we see it ourselves with our own budgets. I would rather see infrastructure hits to the budget than service. I went to High School in a fifty year old building and am doing just fine.
So what is more important, kids getting a fair and equatable education as is the right, or slashing the budget drastically to appease the vocal few, which it is, because the turnout for the elections this year were dismal. There is no mandate here, just the pendulum swinging in extremis.
Mr. Schweiker makes an interesting point about school size. There is one AD at Westfield (2nd largest school in state) and one at Dominion (smallest high school in LCPS). So there would be some economy of scale if the planners in this county had decided to build, say Potomac Falls at twice the size, as well as Heritage, Stone Bridge and Freedom. And from a strictly financial standpoint, I would tend to agree. But I am not sure the savings are worth it. Having taught at Lake Braddock Secondary (a mega school of 7-12 in Fairfax with over 3500 students), I saw this economy of scale. The problems included major overcrowding of common space, traffic issues and a need for major acreage. The school is sprawling, like a mall, despite being two levels. Also, one point that is more important for some than others; trying out for and making a sports team, the band, the school play, the Academic Challenge team, you name it, is incredibly competitive, and perhaps unfair at many levels. Competition for kids can be good but when your kid is going out for one of 12 spots on a team in a school of 1500, you are going to appreciate that, as opposed to a FCPS school that has more than 2,000 or 2,500. I believe that the small schools attracted a lot of your neighbors, and may attract the people who buy your home in a few years when you retire. This county is NOT Fairfax, and a lot of people like that. When Fairfax refugees come here (I was one) and say ‘hey, FCPS does this or that better’ beware! There’s a reason we are different, and let’s keep it that way.
Head of the sand - your comment shows whose head is where.
Loudoun has NO problem with people coming, on the contrary. And the school system is excellent and can afford some reduced cost escalation.
Richest county in America with a broke and broken education system that keeps people from moving here in the middle class. That is pathetic. The good news is that private schools are booming as those who can flee.
Overhead which is driven by small school size. Comparing LCPS to Fairfax is apples to oranges because Fairfax has AAA high schools whereas we artificially limit the size, thus increasing the number and multiplying overhead. I have no problem with bigger schools if class size is lowered.
Chef Boyardee, that’s commonly known as a typo, not a grammatical error. Don’t forget you were one of the folks who mistakenly thought the teachers had a union…who’s the one making the mistakes? Sniping at others accomplishes nothing, and I’ve now lowered myself to your level…something that just had to be done.
If the LCPS motto wants to continue to preach ‘<i>An Climate for success’... </i>
If that’s their motto, they should go to a Fairfax County school so someone can teach them proper grammar.
Time to get your collective head out of the sand and actually put some money behind schools—it will probably pay for itself.
You ARE joking, right? Seriously? Do you have even a modicum of an idea of what we pay for our school system in comparison? By a way of measure of dollar value, each and every one of our kids should be lining the halls at some Ivy League school with a full academic scholarship and a new Lexus.
This sweeping statement fails to recognize the point many of us here are making. We have no problem with our continued investment in the schools, we DO have a problem with the over-inflated overhead driven by a school superintendent who uses each and every item in his dirty bag of tricks to deceive and manipulate the parents for his own personal gain.
I apologize for your emotional disinformation. Be careful of the Kool-Aid. It tastes like rat poison.
West Bus,
It gets frustrating, doesn’t it? I really think that some people on here will say whatever they want with no regard for the facts. We can state the facts until the cows come home, and it makes no difference to them.
Tour Guide: “Here we see the Internet, where people from all over the Globe are free to express their hyperbolic and baseless views indelibly for time and memorial for all the world to oogle! Sir or Madam, this is the Internet! Come on in. The water’s just fine!
I am excited about this new school board. They are getting busy for the taxpayers that elected them and it is much appreciated! Good job!
@More govt. Couple quick things, first, I made a passing mention about your hypocrisy due to attacking the poor reporting skills while making grammar mistakes (of which you made several more in your latest post). Second, you ignore the point that the $338 is divided among 5 staffers, not 4, and thus the total salary/benefits package is $67.6K per (not $85k you calculated). Third, I would imagine that most job listings states “Salary X, plus benefits”. If you were offered a job for $67k and then were told ‘oh, btw, you are paying not only YOUR share of SS but also the EMPLOYER’S share, you would not be pleased, because that would be disingenuous on the part of the company. Furthermore, I understand where you get the 2,080hrs/year, but my point is that employees generally get 10 holidays and two weeks paid vacation, which is not 2,080 worked. If you count the days an employee doesn’t have to work as hours worked, then by that crazy rationale, you would say teachers have something like 60 additional paid leave days. Incidentally, I have a great many friends who work IT jobs, and contracting jobs and they NEVER work overtime. Many people in this area are federal employees or work for federal contractors, and my understanding is a large portion of them do not work overtime. Finally, I think the reasons people are apparently falling all over themselves to teach are both related to the economy—a lack of jobs for well-educated Americans and the job stability offered to qualified teachers. That said, as a person who reviews the credentials of prospective employees, a great many of these applicants are simply not qualified to teach, they lack the certification or prerequisite experience to obtain particular jobs. In conclusion, you are factually incorrect that teachers are well-paid, although I do believe they have good job security and wonderful benefits, but that’s not the same as well-paid, to be sure
great point Recall at 5:11! nothing wrong with Fox or Kuesters calling each of their collegues to discuss the motion and drum up support. That is what Boards have done for years. For Hatrick, Bergel and Reed to take issue with this is HYPOCRITICAL. Great job new Board members!
More Gov’t, Please—
Do you have any training in economics? Your pho-analysis is ignorant.
For one, Loudoun County teachers are not unionized, they do not collectively bargain. You apparently don’t have a monopoly on facts—in fact, I would say your facts are in short supply—and given your apparent 1 days training in economics you of course realize that reduced supply drives up cost.
Second, don’t conflate supply and demand with collective bargaining. Your “analysis” is confused and ignorant. Collective bargaining is about equalizing bargaining power between employers and employees. Employees otherwise have an incentive to undercut one another and drive down the wage— a collective action problem which employers are happy to exploit. Unions merely eliminate this collective action problem so that both parties can come to the bargaining table on equal footing—regardless of where the supply and demand curves fall.
You also are not realizing the competitive dynamic at stake. Loudoun county should be competing to hire the best teachers. By offering lower salaries and reduced benefits compared to counties like Fairfax, however, you can of course understand why Fairfax may get a better pool of teacher candidates to select from than Loudoun.
Do you people in Loudoun County realize that by slashing your education funding you are only reducing the attractiveness of the county for people who might consider moving there? This is based on the fact that school quality is the number one factor on where people decide to move. So, be reducing the quality of education, you are discouraging people from moving to Loudoun County, which further reduces demand for property in Loudoun County, suppressing home values and further aggravating the education budget problems.
Time to get your collective head out of the sand and actually put some money behind schools—it will probably pay for itself.
I know Ellen, it is frustrating! Everyone in the LCPS family needs to rally and support eachother! Whether it be a bus driver, teacher or custodian…the daily interaction with each child helps their in development. Even though I’m ‘only’ a bus driver, I help with homework, and teach many life skills. If the LCPS motto wants to continue to preach ‘An Climate for success’ they should realize the impact these challenging times are having on us all! Lets all wear black tomorrow LCPS Employees! Solidarity!
Hey Stephen, do you also buy your own supplies and materials to do your job? I know many salaried professionals who do NOT work beyond their 8 hours. Heck, I’m married to one. He makes a great salary, little to no stress, and leaves his work right at the office without a second look. But I do not know ANY teacher who only works 8. Why so bitter against teachers? Stop the hating against them. They are not the ones proposing what does or does not go into the budget. Start with the higher ups. Enough already.
West Bus,
It gets frustrating, doesn’t it? I really think that some people on here will say whatever they want with no regard for the facts. We can state the facts until the cows come home, and it makes no difference to them.
THERE IS NO TEACHERS UNION! Folks, no LCPS employee belongs to a union, please stop assuming they do! Sheesh…
That’s not the same thing Recall. Organizing a blindside behind the scenes involves more than two people talking about priorities. We should not be supporting these dirty tactics and we should hold our public officials to higher standards. Wishful thinking, I know. We would do better drafting out of the citizenry than electing those that lust after power.
For those of you who have been paying attention and believe that this school board is doing something out of the norm by conducting school related discussions away from the podium, let me redirect you to the blog posting of one of our former school board members, John Stevens, regarding conversations that occur away from the dais re: the Frederick Douglass Boundary hearing -
“I can say that a conversation between two board members that doesn’t happen on the dais does not constitute a closed door, hush-hush, nontransparent, secret meeting. When I walked around CL19 while I spoke on the phone with Jennifer Bergel and told her that I just couldn’t see her point about CL19 being three different communities, or later that evening called Joe Guzman to ask that he listen carefully to the case I would make on the dais the next night to keep CL19 together, it was not a closed door, hush-hush, nontransparent, secret meeting. When I stayed behind with Tom Marshall after meeting with residents to ask him what he thought of the data that they had presented, or when I pulled Tom Reed aside to ask him his priorities to get a sense of what I might propose by way of a compromise between members… these are not closed door, hush-hush, nontransparent, secret meetings. These are your representatives doing their jobs, and it should not be scandalized or criminalized.”
Just because the players change, the rules should not.
I’m glad I can communicate in various ways, compute and use statistics, write and spell, conduct experiments, drive, and reason. I also value that I can understand foreign languages, use technology, sing and act, keep healthy, and follow the law of the land. It’s critical to know how to make thoughtful decisions and know how to negotiate. Scheduling and creative problem-solving are necessary in the workplace. To provide inspiration, share insight, and experience joy of life-long learning are benefits I’ve gained in great part because of my own education in and career with LCPS.
Put a price on those and other benefits unmentioned.
Remember the recent article where LCPS stated they have 1,552 LCPS employees costing over $100,000/year.
That is one top-heavy organization!
@loco:
Bwahh…… You can nitpick my grammar and spelling, but facts are facts. Benefits (SS, retirement) need to be included because it’s part of total compensation and that’s what “I” pay as a taxpayer to LCPS teachers, therefore it’s $85k/yr.
Employers typically use 2,080 hours to calculate a work year because you need to account for vacations and company-paid holidays for a work year. An equivalent contracted teacher is probably paid for 1,500 hours. Your analysis assumes that only teachers work more than 8 years/day. If you want to count the extra non-paid hours, then you need to do same for non-teachers.
Supply and Demand, really? The pay rate is negotiated by unions that have a strangle hold on education. Allow vouchers and we’ll see the true supply/demand. If teachers are underpaid, how come they’re standing in line to take a teaching job. Just ask my neice!
I’d love to pay a teacher to actually teach material and not all this feel-good, politically correct, garbage. Full discloser, I have two kids in the government schools. We spend hours with them outside the classroom advancing their education. Where do those resources come from? Us, responsible parents. It’s our job.
So, getting back to my original point, the title is misleading and teachers are well paid. :-)
“The members did not conduct a meeting outside the view of the public. Under your interpretation of the law, any discussion by Board members outside of an official meeting would be prohibited.”
Actually any discussion of board business by three or more members outside of an official meeting IS indeed prohibited under the law.
Not saying that happened but it sure looks that way from here.
@Bill Schweiker——I agree too. It is prohibited to meet outside and away from the public to conduct business. This applies to Board members, BoS members, even commission members.
While I have no problem with board members looking for ways to cut waste in ANY department, I do have a real issue on how the current School Board is conducting business.
From where I sit, it looks like 7 of the board members are undergoing On-The-Job training. Spending nearly 30 min to discuss, lookup, and respond to “Roberts Rules” is not my vision of an experienced Board Member.
I’m pretty sure board members can’t hold secret meetings to strategize without violating the sunshine act. How did they all know to be prepared? Even if it was innocent, it smells bad, looks bad and is bad. What I am calling for is an investigation.
@The Right Reverend Chef Boyardee, COTFSM
I’m not a fan of teachers unions but why are we jumping on the teachers here? We’re talking about the administration. They provide the only real value in any of this.
Brilliant comment. Has anyone actually asked the teachers which areas are in dire need of some trimming? I have, and was very impressed by their thoughtful and intelligent responses, most of which I personally agree with. Remember that most Loudon teachers are taxpayers as well.
Unfortunately, most of those I speak to wouldn’t dare speak at a school board meeting for fear of retribution. I believe the teachers need to have a better outlet in which to voice their feedback on processes designed to improve the quality and efficiency of education in Loudoun County.
I’m not a fan of teachers unions but why are we jumping on the teachers here? We’re talking about the administration. They provide the only real value in any of this. Certainly not Patrick (think SpongeBob) and his minions.
Look at me! Look at me! Focus! Did you take your Ritalin today?
Hornberger has got to go. In the brief time he has been in office he has managed to destroy the public trust and demoralized the entire school system management and staff. Pulling a fast one on the agenda and blindsiding everyone to make decisions with no preparation on million dollar items is no way to be a chairman. Pathetic
A recall??? Really??? Are those of you who are calling for this even aware that the actions of the new school board member are NOT based on a personal agenda, but rather in complete alignment with feedback obtained from…and here’s the important phrase here…THEIR CONSTITUENTS!!! They were elected on a specific platform and they should be applauded for actually executing it. It demonstrates courage and an unwavering dedication to their objectives. An elected official who doesn’t hold true to his or her platform upon entering office is the absolute worst kind.
Budgetary and program opinions beside…if the previous boards had actually responded appropriately to the requests of their respective constintuencies, this rampant angst and anger that is prevalent in Loudoun parent circles wouldn’t exist, and perhaps a few of the six who were outed last November may still be on the dais. However, do not fool yourselves in believing these new members aren’t getting hundreds of emails applauding their actions.
With regard to this school board, if you have buyer’s remorse, just deal with it and drop this recall garbage. The biggest issue with Loudoun at the moment is that WAY too many folks are reactive rather than proactive. I suggest that all of you who are pushing for a recall just simply move on and accept what is, and let your vote do the talking in a few years. Unless someone has changed the rules without telling me, I believe that is still the way it is done in the US.
Please don’t talk to me about teachers having to work more than an “8” hour day. Your own policy states that you work a 7 hour day minimum but no more than 7.5. Must be nice. I am salary, just like teachers, but by policy I have to put in an 8 hour day, and that does NOT include the time for lunch. I don’t get all the holidays that teachers get nor do I get to take off several months during the summer.
I would be willing to bet that no teacher in the county looks at their annual compensation using strictly a 10 month view. You look at the salary being offered as an annual amount and make your decision on that. The good news for you is that you only have to work barely 10 months to earn it. I could only wish to be that lucky. And please don’t tell me about how you work extra hours because I can assure you that pretty much ANYONE who is on salary works way beyond an 8 hour day. It is part of the territory that comes with being on salary…
Kudos to the new School Board!
nnn
HOORAY FOR THE NEW SCHOOL BOARD!
FINALLY A BOARD THAT DOESN’T BOW TO KING HAT TRICK
I’m glad I voted for them!
If anyone wants a recall vote, then recall Hat Trick
The last several years of blind mice following every toot from the pied piper Hat Trick has ended. Get used to it.
This school board is cutting waste and not hurting the education being delivered to the students.
Loudoun County schools will survive with less money to waste.
I propose we elect this board for life!
Bill, “...shall conduct a meeting…”
The members did not conduct a meeting outside the view of the public. Under your interpretation of the law, any discussion by Board members outside of an official meeting would be prohibited. That isn’t what the statute is about. It is about members being physically present in plain view while conducing official business.
If Fox and company colluded outside of the meeting an an item not on the agenda before the meeting they violated the Sunshine Law and I would hope this paper would start investigating.
http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law
A. Except as expressly provided in subsection G of this section or § 2.2-3708.1, no local governing body, school board, or any authority, board, bureau, commission, district or agency of local government, any committee thereof, or any entity created by a local governing body, school board, or any local authority, board, or commission shall conduct a meeting wherein the public business is discussed or transacted through telephonic, video, electronic or other communication means where the members are not physically assembled. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the use of interactive audio or video means to expand public participation.
Obviously, all but three knew about this in advance. We as voters and tax payers need to send them a message that this will not stand. I’m all for fiscal conservatism that makes sense like cutting gas stipends BUT this county has to start moving away from dirty politics.
Tom Reed needs to start acting like a professional and not walk out of meeting in a huff because things aren’t playing out as he likes. We are paying him to work. BOS, please keep up the good work, so many of us that have kids in LCPS are silent because we fear retribution for our individual children. We want accountability for our hard earned tax dollars and want them to benefit our children, not multiple layers of bureaucracy.
Also, ditto what NO THANKS notes about the ‘word’ games out CUTS to the budget. They are not CUTS they are reductions in the percentage of increase. The school budget is going no where but up, it’s just a matter of how far they reach in our pockets.
RRCB - the people voted and elected a new Board, your recall effort can wait until 2015…keep up the great work School Board…if people really knew how much this school system wastes they would be disgusted…hey teachers, if you don’t like your pay or scheduled work time please quit! There are plenty of qualified people to take your spot in a heartbeat. We are tired of the union shakedown of taxpayers who are overburdened as it is….
This article is not a very good representation of what actually happened during the board meeting. Anybody who saw the meeting would know that Fox and Kuesters stood up for what’s right DESPITE the superintendent’s underhandedness! As a citizen and parent, THANK YOU for your courage!
It is good to see a recall. We can’t get rid of Tom Reed soon enough.
Looks like to me that King Hatrick’s rule is being threatened and it is about time!
Newsflash - Mandatory PE/ Dance Classes Added to LCPS Budget
Pee Party Pilates, Anti-Tax Twist, No Benefits Boogie, Ride on Flintstone Feet, Dumb them Down Disco, Hidden Agendas Hip Hop, Suck it Up Salsa, Shake the Staff up Shimmy, Move in the Trailers Meringue, Rock n Roll Rancor 101.
It is good to have Hatrick’s complete control challenged by the Board (Stevens and Marshall take note) but what happened here is that Fox and Co went back and got heat from their teabag supporters and came back to try to save face. Its not the problem with the cuts, but, doing this without vetting is bad government, but, get use to it, there was probably if not a direct violation of the Sunshine law a violation of the spirit becuase these teabag types came in with an agenda. Get use to it, especially with Fox, that clown would have been an efficient member of the SS.
Quoting the statue and enforcing the statues are vastly different. Make a call to the Department of Education and let me know how that goes. Been there, done that.
I’m waiting for the letter to come home from Dr. Hatrick giving us the call to action that the quality of education will suffer irreperable harm if he doesn’t get every dollar he asked for in his budget. The big, bad, School Board and BoS are diminishing the quality of life and our little flowers will no longer be able to get into UVA! Oh my! You know, there are a lot of school systems that have high scores with a lot less resources. In my years of dealing with the educational system, every superintendent is alike. Tax and spend. Lots of money, little results. I’m all for paying teachers a lot of money. I’m also all for ripping out every bit of overhead that doesn’t directly support each and every teacher. That’s what the school board should be after.
This is, after all, Loudoun County, and we are stuck with republicans in charge of everything.
Point of order, good sir. The Democraps had the majority until last election?
Thank God A Recall Petition Is Being Circulated! Please sign it People! Its time we find better more student conscious board members. These people are causing too many problems. We made the entire wrong deicisions for School Board. Look for the petition at Ashburn Area Food Stores Soon!
When the students start paying for all of this, then the board should be more “student friendly”. Give me a break…
Now, if we could only see a motion to dismiss Hatrick…..
I am so tired of teachers whining about all this extra time they have to put in without additional compensation. This happens with every salaried job. If you want a job that pays you by the hour, then leave the teaching profession and go find one. I doubt you will make the same wage while enjoying summers off.
And on more than one occasion while attending games and practices for my children, I have witnessed teachers invoking their kids to grade papers.
Dismayed at Incivility: You are so right!! Teachers ARE paid only for the months they work, but their pay is spread over 12 months. The county gets to hold on to all the money a little longer.
The constant arguments that go back and forth that are based in partial fact or pure fiction are very damaging to the process because people don’t know who to believe - who has time to research all of this?? So mistatements become “truths”, especially when people are looking for info and others to help validate their own views.
Here is another common misconception that the teacher’s day ends at their contract hours. There is no way to do this job effectively without spending hours of additional time beyond the contract hours. People keep trying to compare teachers’ pay and benefits with other industries. It isn’t reaistic to do that - it’s like comparing apples and avocados. : )
Despite all the arguments back and forth, one misconeption that seems to keep popping up is that teachers only work for ten months but get paid a full year salary. The truth is that teachers are contracted to work ten months each year, and are only paid for ten months each year. The fact that their checks are spread over a twelve month period is merely an accounting issue. If you don’t believe this, ask yourself the following question: If the school year was expanded to a twelve month calendar, and teachers contracts were expanded to twelve months (an additional 20%), does anyone not believe that their salaries would also be increased by 20%? It is true that teachers have two months off in the summer. It’s also true that they don’t get paid for those two months. The implication that teachers are being paid for summer vacations is patently false. If we’re going to have intelligent debate, let’s at least try to get the facts straight.
Exactly, Ashburn Man! There was no time to rally the color coordinated, hand-waving masses to create a ‘safe place’ from which Tom Reed & Co could suckle from Hatrick’s spending teat.
Setting aside the contents of the meeting entirely, here’s the problem:
“What seemed like an ambush to some members of the board and staff, left many unprepared … staff and members were not made aware of the change ahead of time. ‘we have not been as transparent as we should be with the public.’… Hornberger replied that he ‘didn’t feel it was necessary to answer the question.’”
I suggest a recall of these Board members. Replace them with people who do not skulk behind others’ backs to accomplish their goals. Let them be open with each other and with the public – and then fight it out accordingly.
From the VA Code § 22.1-253.13:1:
C. Local school boards shall develop and implement a program of instruction for grades K through 12 that is aligned to the Standards of Learning and meets or exceeds the requirements of the Board of Education. The program of instruction shall emphasize reading, writing, speaking, mathematical concepts and computations, proficiency in the use of computers and related technology, and scientific concepts and processes; essential skills and concepts of citizenship, including knowledge of Virginia history and world and United States history, economics, government, foreign languages, international cultures, health and physical education, environmental issues and geography necessary for responsible participation in American society and in the international community; fine arts, which may include, but need not be limited to, music and art, and practical arts; knowledge and skills needed to qualify for further education, gainful employment, or training in a career or technical field; and development of the ability to apply such skills and knowledge in preparation for eventual employment and lifelong learning and to achieve economic self-sufficiency.
Local school boards shall also develop and implement programs of prevention, intervention, or remediation for students who are educationally at risk including, but not limited to, those who fail to achieve a passing score on any Standards of Learning assessment in grades three through eight or who fail an end-of-course test required for the award of a verified unit of credit. Such programs shall include components that are research-based.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There is much, much more in the Code that speaks to the public school requirements in VA.
I am not against cuts per se. I am against cuts that are made without basis, that will affect the quality of education, and are made in a cavalier manner. This is what we are getting now, in my opinion.
The school board must be held accountable to do their jobs according to the full intent of the Code, while taking into consideration the views of ALL of their constituents, not just one political party.
great work Kuesters and Fox!!! find some more to cut, cut, cut this bloated school budget…love the ropa dope too…hatrick couldn’t call out his union minions to clap and cheer for more dough…
@ just doing their job - not so much the recommended cuts as the rather underhanded (sneaky - sly like a fox) way in which they did it. Why not tell entire Board? Why couldn’t Hornberger answer the question? Why create such animosity and hostility? Why not rezone and distribute students evenly among schools rather than overcrowd many and leave many under capacity?wait until budget cuts impact you and we’ll see how you feel about their methods. Doesn’t give a voter much confidence in the system when newly elected officials begin their jobs with this type of behavior.
Section 22.1-79.2 of Virginia code says:
A school board shall:
2. Secure, by visitation or otherwise, as full information as possible about the conduct of the public schools in the school division and take care that they are conducted according to law and with the utmost efficiency;
Utmost efficiency is the key words. In other words, provide a quality school system at the lowest possible cost. That’s all this school board is trying to accomplish. Why do so many people have a problem with that?
Love it, keep it up. Finally and end to the Ksbuki Theater put on by School Board members who rubber stamped anything Hatrick put on the table.
Perhaps LCPS won’t send out a 100 pages to each kid on the first day of school, of which 97 were put in the recycle bin.
Or they’ll have to forgo their marketing pamphlet(that I get in the mail) that shows we spend less per student and teachers then all the other schools in the area(at least the ones east of Loudoun). Even though Loudoun’s graduation rate is highest, kids moving on to college is highest, and scores on the standardized tests are highest.
So what if LCPS cuts out 100 support/administrative positions? I’d rather see the teachers get a raise. I’ve always wondered why a middle school has 3 deans and 2 asst principals?
Why are some HS sports played right after school and others played under the lights? Is there some rule about not playing games on Sat(morning/day), except for playoffs? How come HS parents have to pay extra? Why are so many buses half full or less? How come outside activities that use LCPS for their meetings or fields not charged more? It’s only $200 to rent out auditorium for an hour or $100 or less to use the basketball court after hours.
This thread is entertaining. The vast majority of posters here are so pliable. Folks, the schools are not going to crumble to the ground and our kid’s educational standards are not being lowered.
There are some new board members who want the school system to be ACCOUNTABLE for the things they say and the money they spend. This really is a good thing. And, it is obvious that the old members, and Hatrick, are good politicians who have been able to express “outrage” and incite the public. But really, they are just pissed that they are not blindly getting their way anymore.
It was past Reed’s bedtime. At his age, he needs all the sleep he can get otherwise he’s a bear in the morning…..
Wow, a few cuts and LCPS is heading downhill…. how so? Some of you are so brainwashed by Hatrick and others. The overall budget is more than last year’s budget. Everyone knows we have more chiefs in this school system then are needed. Most are aware in business, you ask for 100 hoping to get 50 and can maintain with 25. LCPS budget is no different.
Dear Students First: it’s the educated leaders of the school system that created this mess in the first place. A return on the education dollar is what should come first and since these are taxdollars it should be the taxpayer first. If your second language classes suck get rid of them and let the wealty parents here by Rosetta Stone.
My only comment: GREAT! Love It! Now we are getting somewhere. republicans come into POWER and they cannot help themselves. Look at the 9-0 republican board of supervisors. Run over everyone. Now the school board. Into mystical things like consulting “rules” from an oracle unknown in the western world, and “mental” votes that somehow were not counted, and therefore a revote was needed. Great stuff. Now, we only need a group of historically famous world wise men of action to go out into the lost continent to discover—- sorry, no such fun. This is, after all, Loudoun County, and we are stuck with republicans in charge of everything.
To the supporters of the School Board Six - go grovel at the feet of Grover, your savior. Please leave education to those who know ANYTHING about the importance of an educated populace. Oh, I forgot, you’d rather they not be able to think for themselves. Glad to hear there are potential recall efforts underway.
Applause applause and take a bow Mr. Fox and Mr. Kuesters!!! I hope you are just getting warmed up with these cuts. As far as the recall goes I’ll work to keep Mr. Fox and Mr. Kuesters
Reed asked Hornberger if he was aware that this issue was to be brought up tonight and why other members of the board were not informed, Hornberger replied that he “didn’t feel it was necessary to answer the question.” ATTENTION SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS THE CITIZENS OF LOUDOUN COUNTY WANT THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION. NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION HORNBERGER.
Here Mr. Reed leaves the meeting before it adjourned. Whats he gonna use some of his sick leave for leaving early? Here people in Leesburg vote for this guy and he cant sit in for the whole meeting? Way to represent Mr. Reed. Typical politican, things dont go your way so you just up and leave. What a mistake you were!!! You should not be paid for this meeting!!!
This school board cut less then 2 percent of the budget. HA HA! You call yourselves fiscal conservatives. Sounds more like you are game playing politicians with no real teeth to your actions. What a friggin joke! The democrats cut as much money from the budget last year. Not to mention, the budget was a 10 percent increase over prior years anyway. Hatrick really fooled you idiots. Ask for more money so that when you cut, know that you are actually INCREASING THE AMOUNT SPENT!
TRANSPARENCY
The actions to cut the school budget on short notice is a hallmark of the Board of Supervisors. Last year cuts were made to a school transportation that was operating within budget and providing excellent bus service to students. The result this year are rides in western Loudoun that exceed 90 minutes each way, in buses that are growing older and spending more and more time in the shop.
This year, we have a new School Board needing to demonstrate its ability to make cuts to the Superintendent’s proposed budget. Sadly, their personnel reductions reduce the quality of instruction, especially in building with higher student occupancy. The BOE FLES budget cuts display an ignorance of the PRIMARY benefit of this program, that is, GREATER cognitive development in evaluation skills in core subjects like reading and math. The development of foreign language fluency at the elementary level is NOT the ultimate objective of FLES. If the BOE needs information to corroborate this, they might access such studies as this one:
Stewart, J. H. (2005). Foreign language study in elementary schools: Benefits and implications for achievement in reading and math. Early Childhood Education Journal, 33(1), 11-16. from PsycINFO database.
Educators and policy makers in many countries have been expressing concern about how to improve students’ achievement in reading and math. This article explores and proposes a solution: introduce or increase foreign language study in the elementary schools. Research has shown that foreign language study in the early elementary years improves cognitive abilities, positively influences achievement in other disciplines, and results in higher achievement test scores in reading and math. Successful foreign language programs for elementary schools include immersion, FLES, and FLEX programs. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2006 APA, all rights reserved) (journal abstract).
Chairman Hornberger will establish a respect for his new board by insuring that the public is fully informed of privately decided actions such as the motions made by Board members Fox and Kuesters to cut instructional and support personnel. It will not take very many poorly considered cuts like these in the school budgets to precipitate a decline in the instructional excellence that this school system has worked so hard to develop.
Thank God A Recall Petition Is Being Circulated! Please sign it People! Its time we find better more student conscious board members. These people are causing too many problems. We made the entire wrong deicisions for School Board. Look for the petition at Ashburn Area Food Stores Soon!
Where was the School Baord when the first $100 mm high school in Loudoun history was approved?
Fantastic job school board! Keep up the good work. LCPS needs to learn to live within reality of the current economic environment. Keep reducing costs.
I’d like to know the political affiliation / leanings of those who suggest cutting the school budget is a bad thing. Do you feel the same way about state and national budgets?
Keep Guidance folks, Athletic Directors (asst) etc….they are needed! All I know is that there are way too many admin people in front office of high schools. AND how about that big building full of people in the Broadlands. Any cuts there??
What about iPads for the kids? Are those safe?
@Rev….I believe I made a solid argument before pointing out his hypocrisy….he criticized the reporter for being inept as a writer—-will writing ineptly.
When all other arguments fail, tell the poster that they are uninformed and a poor grammarian. What a way to win an argument. I love this! Wait, my popcorn is done. Let the games begin! Whoo Hoo!
Kudos to the new board! Let’s bring some sanity to this. Every time the Superintendent passes gas, it translates into a new dollar spend for we the tax payers. Frankly, I tired of the fear mongering and disinformation from the school system every time they have to take a hit on their overly inflated budget requests. I thank God that School Boards don’t have the power to tax as they do in some states. Time to live within your means, dear school board. Personally, I’m counting the days to when my last child is out of the school system. I’ll no longer have to concern myself with such trivial matters.
@More gov’t. I read your post, then reread the second paragraph of the article. It did say four positions, then in a later paragraph that seemed to refer to those cuts, it listed fuve positions. Disregarding this apparent error, I get that the total averages $67,600 per position seems high. Please note that in addition to salary paid by LCPS, Soc. Sec., unemployment tax and health retirement benefits are included. My understanding is those total an extra 30% over salary (SS alone costs 6.5%-7.5% extra to the employer in any business). So a person making about $52,500 would cost LCPS about $67,600 to employ. A teacher with no advanced education on step 11/12 makes that much. I assume a dean would have several years experience, not to mention a Master’s and probably administrative credentials. Using some back-of-the-envelope calculations, I figured that if all five of these employees were paid on the first step (all brand new just out of college employeess) it would cost at least $255k (and that assumes a dean without an advanced degree). A few things to consider here as well before your next uninformed post: 1. implying that teachers are part-time employees because they don’t work most of June, any of July and part of August is intentionally inflammatory and intellectually dishonest (a standard 40 hour week for a person with 2 weeks paid leave is 1,920 hours a year (remember 10 federal holidays off along with the 10 days of leave); a teacher who averages a 10 hour workday over his/her roughly 200 workday contract is in fact working a full-time equivalent—the work day may be 7 hours, but with after school meetings, planning, grading and professional development, it isn’t difficult to average 3 extra hours per day worked) 2. Consider the reason for the ‘high salaries’ teachers earn; simple supply and demand. The supply of ‘highly qualified teachers’ as defined by NCLB is surpassed by the demand for them by school systems nationwide. Requiring such strict licensing has actually boosted teacher salaries. 3. When attacking someone for poor reporting, a job skill, be sure that you employ proper grammar, an everyday skill. Review your use of the word ‘then’ in the third sentence of your opening paragraph and tell me if you should have used another word that sounds and looks almost the same.
The school board’s function is to provide a high quality public education for every student. They have many responsibilities to ensure that the standards of quality and learning are met. In the Code of VA, the many standards are outlined. It is very complex - running a school system as large and diverse as Loudoun’s. THEY are ultimately charged with the full responsibility.
If people elected them for the sole purpose of cutting the budget, which I believe they did, those people are misinformed as to the role and responsibilities of the school board.
@Keep up the good work - I applaud and echo your comments. Well said.
Typicaly lousy reporting by calling this a cut. Ask for millions more, get slightly less, and then call it a cut. In actuality, we’ll spend more this year then we did last year. How about baseline budgeting?
Funny, second paragraph. Cutting four positions saves $338k. That’s $85k/person. Thought teachers did make any money? And that’s with the summers off!
So the great Tom Reed was offended because he wasn’t properly informed of the agenda. It’s interesting I didn’t see that same frustration last spring when the $8 million dollar spending on the whiteboards was rammed through with little notice and no opportunity to consider other alternatives for this money. Apparently, Mr. Reed has no problem with pushing something through quickly as long as it suits his agenda and is in line with his allegiance to Hatrick. Hey Tom since you were so anxious to leave the meeting early, why not take the next logical step and don’t come back ever. This board has been dominated for too long by folks who had neither the backbone nor the proclivity to standup for the taxpayers they were elected to represent. To the majority on the current board, please stand your ground. You were elected to hold the schools administration accountable in the way they haven’t been in years and are off to a good start so far. There are many like me who will remember why we voted for you and stand by you in the next election.
We’ve had a good school system which will be mediocre by the time this board is done. What a shame for the students and staff of the public schools in the richest county in the USA.
- Reductions to a proposed budget are not cuts unless the reductions actually go below the baseline which is the previous year’s approved budget. Then money is actually cut. What is occuring here is a priorition of budgetary issues.
This improperly use of budgeting terms by Hatrick and the LT editor are disingenuous and designed to inflame emotions, neither which help when trying to determine the best allocation of available taxpayer dollars for county education.
Lets cut Hatricks $12,000 car allowance. Use his own car at 51 cents a mile. Any other leased vehicles that aren’t for transporting children do the same 51 cents a mile. Cut part timers benefits across the board even if it includes the school board!
Everyone take a chill pill and let’s see how this plays out. It might actually be a good thing….the cuts that were made to the budget last week were woefully inadequate and apart from looking ineffective, the School Board had also left themselves wide open to the BOS coming down hard on them AGAIN and slicing and dicing Hatrick’s fat for them! At least this way they look like they are trying to work with the BOS and make cuts in order to keep good will flowing between the two supervising bodies. It’s a good idea and the new Board members should be commended for shaking things up a bit and taking a different approach. Doesn’t matter if it ruffled a few feathers as long as the end result is good for the County as a whole! There is plenty of fat to cut and the newest School Board members are genuinely looking to do just that.
Wow - really? Can’t wait to see what happens next. Who needs soap operas, we have the Loudoun County School Board!
The chairman is rude and disingenuous. These cuts are chump change by comparison with what it will cost to build his designer HS-8 for his Ashburn cronies.
Proud might be prouder if he’d take time to proof his work.
People using or reporting on Roberts’ Rules of Order should know the terminology; you don’t “motion”, you make a motion. You say ” I move to” or “I move that.”
“What seemed like an ambush to some members of the board and staff, many were left unprepared and without their budget information to give other members definite answers to what the cuts would do.” “It’s really hard for us to help if we’re not privy to the fact that you were going to reopen the operating budget.” “Apparently some of you knew that was going to occur. But certainly the staff didn’t. I hope you’ll consider that in the future as a courtesy to staff because it’s pretty clear you were going to do it.”
These new School Board members have no interest in being courteous, transparent, or informing staff of upcoming changes to the agenda. They appeared ineffectual in previous meetings, so decided their only recourse was to make the LCPS staff look ill-prepared. Tit for tat? What reconciliations will they offer?
Remember when council members in a western town met outside the usual parameters of scheduled business discussions? Expect future pre-planned moves which are designed for appeasing the anti-taxers and nothing for students, teachers, or staff.
Kudos to the new board members. They are challenging thes status quo and the Harrick regime that has been in place for far too long.
Bergel and Reed are simply mad because they have no power. Reedis also failing miserably at his scare tactics.. Sheridan must parrots back whatever those two have to say, she has no mind of her own.
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