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Baseball stadium part of development proposal
A developer wants to build a stadium in eastern Loudoun for a minor-league baseball team.
As part of a proposal for a large mixed-use community called Kincora Village, NA Dulles Real Estate Investor LLC is asking Loudoun's Board of Supervisors to approve a plan to build a 5,500- to 6,500-seat stadium near Route 28 and Nokes Boulevard south of Route 7.
"We think it's a great place for this type of project," said developer Michael Scott of Great Falls.
The stadium, according to a land-use application filed with the county, would be the home to an expansion team from the Atlantic League of Professional Baseball but would also host concerts and youth sporting events. Its maximum capacity would be 10,000.
"The proposed minor-league stadium will provide for a unique entertainment venue and could help to promote tourism and business travel to Loudoun," said a report prepared by Board of Supervisors Chairman Scott York's office.
Currently, the 10-year-old league, which is not affiliated with Major League Baseball, includes eight minor-league teams from Connecticut, Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. Notable players like Jose Canseco and Rickey Henderson once called the league home.
"Right now, we might be the only league, or industry, looking to expand," said Joe Klein, the league's executive director.
On why the league is eyeing Northern Virginia for expansion, "why not," he shot. Klein also said it's unlikely a team in Loudoun could be up and running before the start of league's 2009 season in April.
"There is just not enough time," he said.
Besides the stadium, the Kincora Village proposal also includes eight office buildings, 1,400 multifamily homes and 400,000 square feet of retail space on about 400 acres.
In 2007, supervisors rejected a similar plan by the same developer to build a mixed-use development on the same site, citing at the time that the project was too close to Dulles Town Center and the previously approved One Loudoun development. That proposal did not include a stadium.
"This gives us an opportunity to look at a better way to use this property," York said of the current proposal.
With this new plan, the developer has filed a request for a rezoning and a special exception. An amendment to the county's comprehensive plan is also needed for the project to move forward.
Scott said he would like the county's approval process wrapped up within six months.
The reason being?
"There are other jurisdictions vying for this franchise," he warned.
The board will address the proposal starting in January.
Times-Mirror staff writer Holly Hobbs contributed to this report.
Please vote for for this special exception which could lead to a fabulous opportunity for new tax revenue and a enjoyable place for our families and friends to go for a relatively inexpensive day a the ballpark compared to major league sports.
This excellent location is far better suited for this kind of entertainment development then more ugly and misplaced flex buildings and industrial that are popping up everywhere on prime visible locations, which are destroying the look of eastern Loudoun at the speed of light. ANd you wonder why you can't get class A business in this county anymore. Flex should be hidden and not seen and keep it by our airports instead of building residential by the airport like the toll community off 606 what a misplaced residential development that is.
Anyway back to this proposed minor league baseball stadium. The location is excellent because rt 7 and rt 28 will be a free freeway in the next several years. Also rt 7 rt 28 also have the added benefit of having parallel service roads unlike the greedway.
OK back to the proposed special exception for the proposed baseball park for Kincora please do not let this wonderful once in a lifetime opportunity miss loudoun and the money it will bring to loudoun.
Finally have them cut back on the residential and make the residential appealing to empty nesters and singles which we need more of in this county.
Posted by Leej
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First of all, the last thing the good people of this county need is to spend time and vital tax dollars in the development of a baseball stadium for a team from a league that may not even exist in a year. The Atlantic League has been in financial trouble and just this year saw two of its teams up New Jersey and Connecticut way go bankrupt and have to be bailed out by the league. The City of Richmond told them to get lost.
And secondly, my brother played in the league four years ago and it is nothing more than a glorified 21st century sweatshop. The ballplayers make nearly nothing to play and are fed and treated poorly. The decent folks here in Loudoun will not tolerate this type of business setting up shop. The only people making any money in the cities that have Atlantic League teams are the owners and there are only four of them for the whole league. The counties make near nothing.
We visited my brother at the Somersett club several times and the way these teams are run is a disgrace. The owner treated his players like furniture and the place was dirty and poorly run. And despite what they tell you the seats were mostly empty.
Lets use our tax dollars and energies to build something we can be proud of and that will be productive for our community.
Posted by bethanygeorge
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bethanygeorge you might be correct, but before we throw this opportunity away here is a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_...
Their stadiums and activities for kids and families look very cool as well as their stadiums. Perhaps if not them we should go after one of the majors minor league teams. The idea and concept sounds promising and should be thoroughly looked at to bring a unique opportunity to Loudoun one way or another.
Posted by Leej
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SAY NO TO ATLANTIC LEAGUE AND STADIUM
I agree Bethany the last thing we need in this economy or as we plan for our community's future is to spend tax dollars on a Trojan Horse. The Atlantic League is not a professional baseball circuit. It calls itself an independent baseball league and frankly it is hardly that either. It is more like a franchise of circuses owned by four people. They have placed teams in cities like Bridgeport, CT, Long Island, NY, Newark, NJ, Somerset, NJ, Camden NJ, York and Lancaster, PA, and in Waldorf, MD. They play in stadiums paid for with tax payer dollars and the debt is paid back through lease agreements with the local counties. Think about that when you consider that two of the league's teams recently folded and according to items easily found on the web other league franchises are bleeding money. Ownership ranges from adventure capitalist to real estate developers to car dealers. And yes from all reports they are the ones making all of the revenue. These teams have done nothing for the communities they exist in and relied upon for capital. The players are largely guys who have hung around the minors, maybe had a brief visit to the majors but are not going to make it. Every so often the league invests in a high profile former major leaguer whose talent has long passed so they can create excitement and advertise that the league has former major leaguers and plays at a high level. A gross exaggeration. The players are paid less than minimum wage, reside in cheap motels, and from all reports are treated poorly. This is not what I want in my community, and certainly not what I want my children exposed to. AT BEST IT'S A SHORT TERM BOOM UNTIL THE LEAGUE OR THE TEAM FAILS, AND AT WORST WE GET STUCK WITH STADIUM DEBT. Build for the future, for our children's future. Save the white elephants for the political speeches but spend our tax dollars wisely.
Posted by wilsonJ
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People, before you all go jumping to conclusions, you should probably get some facts. If I understand correctly, NO TAX DOLLARS WOULD BE USED FOR THIS PROJECT. The baseball stadium would be privately funded as a part of the overall project. Not only will the County NOT have to pay for the stadium, but they will probably receive property taxes on it (which will be alot) since it will be privately owned. In addition, the County will most likely receive additional/increased taxes from sales tax (tickets, food, etc.), ticket tax, hotel/motel tax, etc. Coupled with about $50 million in road improvements that no one can find money for anytime soon, the whole project sounds like a pretty good deal for the County to me.
Posted by Roundhill
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Roundhill you make a lot of sense and if this league goes under there is a stadium ready to go for another, hopefully, a real minor league. Lets see what the real proposal by Kincora is before we say no.
If no tax dollars are used and roads built especially Gloucester we the taxpayers can't lose.
Posted by Leej
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Roundhill and Leej I would like to know what if any interest you have in this project. This community has far greater needs than a baseball stadium and particularly one that in all likelihood will at somepoint sit empty. First of all Roundhill, there is no tax revenue if their is bankruptcy and if there are no ticket sales, no concessions or the like. Do some research before you speak. The cities of Bridgeport and Newark have had to fight to get the revenues and rent due them from their respective Atlantic League teams. Examine why the City of Richmond didn't want these people. Nothing is ever free sir. And Leej before assuming that if the Atlantic League folds or doesn't come that we can just get an affiliated club, you need to examine everything that has gone on in Richmond. The standards and obligations for obtaining a minor league team are enormous. Such approvals usually take years of negotiations to secure. Review the articles on the web about how many cities went to the effort, spent millions of dollars to bring teams only to fail or to have a team come and then leave as quickly as it came. Is a baseball stadium really what we need. Where are the environmental impact statements on such a project? Where are the traffic and mobility studies?
And perhaps more importantly gentlemen, before we propose bringing in a team from this "Atlantic League" could we do some research on its history--its real history. Not wikipedia articles written by the league offices or the team websites that read like advertisements. There are dozens of articles and informational sources available on the web that indicate that Bethany is correct, and that this is nothing more than a sweatshop where players are mistreated and exploited so that the owners (4 people), and only the owners are making money. Read the articles in which government officials from the cities where the league's teams play state that the local communities have not realized any benefit. Read the articles about how the better ballplayers in this country won't go near this league. How attendances are down because of the quality of play, and the economy. Even if this could make some short term dollars it doesn't mean we should jump. We could just as easily build a "bunny" ranch and make money--but we have standards and moral obligations to our children and community. Lets stop taking the simple approaches and trying to sell Trojan Horses. Our future is vital and we need to examine all options and to arrive at a long term plan that maintains our wonderful community but supports its future. The Atlantic League is not by any means the solution gentlemen. Clearly gentlemen you are intriqued at the thought of a shiny new ballpark. This is often the hook that is used. But try to remember that all that glitters is not gold.
Posted by wilsonJ
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I understand this group will be in for an uphill battle on the zoning.
The.Pibbster(at)Verizon(dot)Net
Posted by ThePibbster
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I have no interest in this project what so ever- other than I think it might be nice to have local baseball of some kind. While the community may have "far greater needs than a baseball stadium", I'm not sure that that has to due with the issue since we aren't talking about public money that could be spent on those issues. It's not like we can tell the developer "we don't want your baseball stadium- just give us all your money so we can spend it on something else".
They are proposing a for profit venture no different from a shopping center or office park. Even if they folded (which I don't buy), someone would still be paying the County alot more in property taxes than what the empty land is currently generating.
Everyone should keep in mind that this baseball stadium is just one part of an overall project that includes a bunch of residential (more than 1000 units?), a few million sq' of office and commercial and some retail. If the whole thing doesn't get approved then i don't think the baseball happens. There are also alot of other aspects to a project like this that have to be considered. In my mind, traffic and the amount of roads they are agreeing to build are probably the biggest. The fact that it sounds like they will agree to complete Pacific Blvd, Russell Branch Blvd and Gloucester Parkway are HUGE. Completion of Gloucester alone would take huge amounts of traffic off of Waxpool. The baseball stadium is really just a nice bonus.
Posted by Roundhill
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ANYONE WANT TO BUY A BRIDGE? OR MAYBE A BASEBALL STADIUM?
Gentlemen lets not misrepresent any facts here in the interest of selling a bottle of snake oil, or in this case a white elephant baseball stadium. Yes we need significant road improvements, and we need housing, and we need retail. We also need schools, and we need legitimate future tax revenue base. None of this relies on the building of a baseball stadium for which there is no commitment of a team. Go to the Atlantic League's own news site which clearly indicates that they don't want us either. I love baseball. It's a great game and in the right locations it can be very profitable. But our needs outweigh the risks associated with this dressed-up politically motivated sales pitch. My concern with the entire proposal is that they make as a cornerstone of this stadium component the inclusion of a team from a league that is clearly not going to achieve what they are trying to sell and that would bring with it ugly baggage that the good people of Loudoun don't need. We don't need to accomplsih a few small steps toward our future growth on the backs of sweat labor so that a small group of fatcats can get richer. Maybe I am overly sentimental, but I believe in the people of this county. We are decent hard-working people who care not only about our future and new development, but about each other and how people are treated. I again invite all to do there due diligence in researching the history of this so-called "professional baseball" league and all that goes with it. Examine how many past franchises and stadium deals failed after local people put their hearts and souls into it. Examine just the last 12 months of this league's business issues and it should scare the dickens out of anyone considering even a moderate expenditure of our tax dollars. Why would the people of Richmond whose baseball heart has been ripped out by the loss of their team say no to the Atlantic League. Remember, if you get into bed with the Devil in the end you will only get burned. And you may very well lose your soul. The soul of this community is too important to sellout.
Posted by wilsonJ
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An Atlantic League official named Joe Klein when asked in this article why they would consider Loudoun as a site for an expansion team offers, "why not"? Why not indeed. Why wouldn't Mr. Klein or his buddies in this traveling sweatshop sideshow not want to come to Loudoun or anywhere else where good people will ultimately foot the bill. If you build it they will come. But in the long term what will they take. Even if the stadium is built entirely with private funds, which is unlikely, what will we lose. We will lose our decency in bringing in this ragtag outfit that places greater consideration on their own revenue streams than on how a man playing baseball should be treated or how the community that provides that revenue stream should be treated. Ask the citizens of Newark, NJ, and Bridgeport, CT how they feel. Ask the people of Atlantic City how they feel. All have suffered the woes associated with this league. Mr. Klein I think is selling pet rocks. The updates to this story today references that Jose Canseco and Rickey Henderson once spent time in this league. That is true and goes to my earlier point of the league buying a big name in the past to promote itself as something it's not. But don't take my word for it. Go on the web and look up the comments about this Atlantic League that were offered by Canseco and Henderson and other ballplayers after they played in it. A great deal of money will be spent in the next six months to get all of us to believe that this lump of coal is a diamond. I have confidence in my neighbors and friends that they will see beyond the polished sales pitch and recognize that this is nothing more than a slick pitch designed to get the people of this county to impulse buy. Don't do it. Tell Klein and his buddies we're not interested in selling our souls. Doesn't common decency and what is right still matter?
Posted by wilsonJ
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Wilson I also have no interest, although I am in the development building and design business. What I don't want to see on this highly visible site is Flex industrial which is by right where we will see zero proffers and more of these industrial buildings junking up the landscape. We need in flex and industrial but they should be well hidden and not on one of the last premier extremely visible site in that corridor. Certainly something better then flex industrial can be built there. If not a well designed stadium then what?????
Posted by Leej
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What are you talking about????I don't really care who the team is- and if this team doesn't work out I'm sure they can find another. It's not really our problem. If a private business wants to put $25+ million into a private baseball stadium, who am I to say no. If we were paying for it, that might be a different story- but were no. More to the point, if this overall project isn't approved this time, they are just going to fill the site with 1 story flex industrial by-right. Not only is that not a good use of the property, it would bring in alot less in taxes and, since it's by right, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO BUILD ANY ROADS.
Posted by Roundhill
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LETS GET REAL--STADIUM PROPOSAL IS A HERRING
Roundhill I find your comments the most disturbing. In other words you don't care about this so called baseball league's reputation for mistreating its players or of misrepresenting tax base windfalls to the communities they go into or try to go into. And yes it does matter even if a private developer pays all of the initial costs. This is our community's future we are talking about. Why don't you look up the articles about the league's Bridgeport and Newark clubs and how the local governments have had to scramble to get monies owed to them paid back. Not just debt but utilities and policing and other costs. You seem very interested in just jumping at this proposal without doing any research. Again I ask, what is your interest. Do you have any idea how many stadiums have been built previously or started and then abandoned. Do your homework because the answer will stun you. This developer could not get his proposal approved before so now he attaches some shiny little stadium in hopes of luring the impulse buyers like yourself. And he proposes to partner with a group of baseball club owners whose history and reputation stinks. Do your homework sir. Do you think the people of Bridgeport, CT, Newark, NJ, Atlantic City, NJ, Allentown, PA, and Newburgh, NY regret having placed their faith in these people. And what of the athletes who are treated like sweat labor. We should sell our souls so you can go to a ballgame? Do you really think its easy to find another team when this Atlantic League team fails? Ask the people of Richmond how easy it is to replace a franchise and yet they wanted no part of this league. Ask the people of Albany, NY, or Ottawa, Canada, how easy it is to get another team or to work out from under the mounds of debt. I agree with you that flex-industrial is not the ideal option which means that the county must do its diligence in seeking out the best proposal to benefit our future. But we should not be blackmailed into a corner to accept a proposal laden with white elephants, future debt and failure, and the presence of an element that conducts itself in a manner in conflict with what any decent people will find acceptable.
Posted by wilsonJ
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WilsonJ, what you seem not to understand is that this isn't a proposal for a baseball stadium. This is a proposal for a $3,000,000,000 (that's 3 billion) development that includes about 6 million sq feet of stuff other than a baseball stadium. The stadium represents a few percent of the overall project. I'm looking at the overall project instead of obsessing over what team may or may not play at the stadium in the project. I have no doubt that whoever owns the stadium has every intent of making a profit on it, so that doesn't really worry me. Besides, if it doesn't work out with this team, the owners can probably steal Prince Williams team. They have a dump of a stadium and the County won't pay to build them a new one (probably rightly).
I also like the idea of the stadium for more reasons than just baseball. They have already said it will have a concert capacity of about 10,000 people.
Anyway, I've said my peace and since I'm sick of hearing the exact same argument about the team, I'm done commenting on this topic.
Posted by Roundhill
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"We don't need to accomplsih a few small steps toward our future growth on the backs of sweat labor so that a small group of fatcats can get richer."
Pretty much describes all of the recent development in Loudoun, doesn't it?
Posted by LindaBudz
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ALL THAT GLITTERS IS NOT GOLD
Roundhill once again you make my point. You and Leej seem to feel that we should accept the development in total even though this white elephant has been thrown in. Nice try. This stadium was thrown in so that people like you and Lee can suddenly generate some excitment for a proposal which has essentially already been rejected once. You state at one point that it doesn't matter who occupies the stadium as if it is that easy to relocate a baseball team to any locality that builds a stadium. And this just is not the case and there are volumes of instances across the country where this has been demonstrated. But you already knew that and so too do the developers who threw it in. You then state that you assume that whoever uses the stadium will turn a profit and if the stadium is empty we can steal another county's team. Roundhill what are you selling here. Your arguments are ludicrous and demonstrate exactly what I have said, that there is no plan here. This stadium has been thrown into a plan to try to nmake it more acceptable. Its a nice wax job on a car without an engine. And I too am sick of the people of this county being sold short by short sightedness like yours. I too am exhausted by the quick fix, pitch it slick mentality of those who would present proposals to our leadership and to all of us. And I am totally disgusted that not once did you express even a hint of concern for the men who play in the league that has been discussed and how they are treated. I do not have to ask what your agenda is sir because it is clear you have one and I think we can all tell for whom.
Linda I agree with you a 1000 percent. Anything worthwhile is going to take imagination and study and a whole lot of work. I am tired of these quick fixes. I love this community and I would like to see a proposal that says the same.
Posted by wilsonJ
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I look forward to joining with my neighbors in stating our objections to this proposal to the Board of Supervisors. This proposal has alarmed many people in our county. As I read this article and the comments I find that the use of misinformation has begun. I agree with those who express concern that the stadium proposal is merely a means to an end. It has no basis in reality and will not produce revenue, tourism or anything else for our community. I also believe that the inclusion of a stadium in this proposal is nothing more than a red herring.
The proposed stadium would serve as home to a minor league team from the Atlantic League. But the Atlantic League is not a minor league. It has no affiliation with Major League Baseball or Minor League Baseball which is operated by MLB. A fact easily verified by visiting the Atlantic League website or by calling Major League Baseball or Minor League Baseball.
The proposal offers that the stadium would also be used for concerts and youth sporting events. The same language that was used in each of the 8 cities that currently have an Atlantic League team when developers and/or team owners proposed building stadiums. Yet in the league's ten year history, less than 8 stadium concerts have been held.
Of the 8 teams that currently exist only two are currently making a profit according to news reports that have run in New Jersey and Connecticut in the last four months. Six of the league's 8 teams are not profitable. An interesting fact when you consider that this proposal argues that a baseball stadium would provide tax revenue. Tax revenue is based upon profitability.
Since this Atlantic League began 10 years ago, four teams have either left the league or folded. At least one team planned in Pennsylvania failed while a stadium was under construction. Since the end of this past season one of the league's teams has filed for bankruptcy protection, and another had to be bought by the league's founder and owner before it was forced to do the same.
The assertion that Loudoun might draw a minor league club, is baseless. There is actually no proposal to relocate any existing minor league baseball team here. Each major league organization has a set number of minor league teams. Teams cannot be added. Sometimes an affiliation will change or a team may be relocated. This is very rare though, as lease agreements and other costs make it prohibitive. When it has occurred it involved years of planning.
And finally, one comment suggests that if the stadium is paid for entirely with private funds then it is no matter if it succeeds or not. Such a comment is certainly not made by anyone with a legitimate interest in this area's growth and success. Such a failure would see a valuable parcel of county land wasted for future development that could benefit the area. This in addition to any monies which the county would have to dedicate along with any concessions that would have to be made.
Posted by victorM
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Of course lets not build anything nice on this land and continue the LOW RENT LOOK on rt 28 and build tons of flex industrial with it's low paying jobs and tons of truck traffic. Yep that will draw the high paying jobs into Loudoun. The minute you enter Loudoun on 28 the architecture and design and quality of even the new buildings on 28 including those low end new hotels says be cautious you are now entering the LOW RENT and Cheap Look district.
Lets keep this up and totally ruin the entrances and gateways to this county. Some of you should take a class in Planning and Design and see what quality developments look like and travel to different parts of the world and see what has and is being built that looks beautiful and shouts quality NOT LOW RENT not quality and beauty. At least you can paint over graffiti but the low rent design just stares back at us forever.
Posted by Leej
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SCAM--thats what this entire baseball stadium proposal is. And clearly Leej as other posted comments have suggested you have a set agenda here. You are typical in your use of the lowest common denominator in trying to push your point. You could care less about this community or its people. Your interest is money. And money alone. This stadium was an add on to a development plan that has essentially already been voted down. Build something nice you say. Lets build a replica of the Taj Mahal, it will be just as useful. But you and your fellow salesman will then argue that we can have an Atlantic League team in 2009. Well the league says no. And according to all of the information I have researched online after reading the earlier comments, its doubtful that the Atlantic League will even be around in two years. So we should invest our time and our resources in a league that is sufferring significant financial problems and who existing franchises are failing, going bankrupt and needing league bailouts. We should place our faith and trust in a league that treats its employees--the players like property and deprives them of basic and fundamental rights. Your a car salesman Leej which is apporporiate since one of that league's owners is as well.
Haste is waste. Let's spend the needed time to find the right development for our community. Let's build a mixed use development that can add to our community not only in tax revenues but in all of the intangibles as well. Let's not jump out of fear or by way of misinformation promulgated by snake oil salesman like Leej. We are a community, lets do this one together. The right way. Whatever we do we will live with for a long time, and a mistake could be very costly to our community.
Posted by victorM
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Leej you're fantastic. You have convinced me. Tell your bosses you've convinced everyone. As long as we are going to do this why don't we get some real sweatshops built in the area as well. Lets be consistent in our unethical behavior. We can offer sub-minimum wage jobs to young girls and women and have them work in substandard conditions. Sounds like a plan. Not!!!
Posted by victorM
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