The United Daughters of the Confederacy overnight Monday removed Loudoun’s Confederate statue, also known as the “Silent Sentinel,” from the courthouse grounds in downtown Leesburg.

The Times-Mirror early Tuesday received images of the statue taken during its removal.

The UDC, which had until Sept. 7 to remove the statue, had not publicized when it planned to come collect the circa 1908 monument.

The Loudoun County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously earlier this summer to return the statue to the Loudoun Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC). The statue, which the board affirmed belonged to the UDC, sat at the corner of North King and East Market streets.

The action came as more counties and cities across the country are taking steps to remove the statues in the wake of nationwide protests for racial equity and reform. While some say the statues are honoring their heritage and ancestry, many others believe the statues stand for white supremacy and institutional racism.

The Virginia General Assembly voted earlier this year to give localities the ability to remove, relocate or contextualize the monuments in their communities. The law went into effect July 1.

Virginia is home to more than 200 public memorials to the Confederacy, according to state officials.

Confederate state removal 3

The Confederate statue in Leesburg was removed overnight on July 21.

Confederate statue removal 1

The Confederate statue in Leesburg was removed overnight on July 21.

Confederate statue removal 2

The Confederate statue in Leesburg was removed overnight on July 21.

(336) comments

Concerned

I think "Bob Jackson" is a member of the Waterford Gentrification Foundation. Shameful comments.

jbsets

Voltaire:

I was not equating honoring the ancestors of Civil War soldiers with war memorials or the Confederate flag with the ancestors of slaves. What I was saying is that if you are the ancestor of a slave, that flag represents a slap to their faces. When they see it, they have to remember that their ancestors were slaves owned by other people; that the MO Compromise declared them as 3/5 of a person compared to a white person; and white people who did not own plantations hated their ancestors so that they had someone to feel superior to.

The forces them to remember that their ancestors were forced to do horrible work in appalling conditions, often while being beaten. The women were often raped by their masters or overseers and the children of these rapes were also slaves and considered 100% black. There were some slaves that, if DNA could have been done then, would have been more white than black (certainly ironic back then.) As I said, the worst possible thing that was done to them was the breaking apart of families through inheritance or dowries, but usually when family members were sold and never saw each other again. Parents were separated from children, spouses from each other, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, etc.

That flag represents 11 states seceding from the US and then fighting the US in order to keep the right to own other human beings...their ancestors. Of course it was all motivated by money. Without slaves, these huge plantations couldn't operate. They couldn't make money if they had to pay them to work the plantations. The MO Compromise is all about the South not wanting to consider the slaves to be human, but since the number of slaves far outweighed the number of whites, they were going to lose representation in the House. This was the first step toward the War.

I am well aware of Lincoln's plan. We all revere Lincoln, but he was a racist in favor of slavery. His political advisors told him that he had to sign the Emancipation Proclamation if he wanted to get re-elected. The majority of the voting public was in the North and they were for emancipation. He signed it purely for political reasons, not because he was such a huge hero. We might be able to find his plans, but we'll never know for sure what Lincoln would have done if he hadn't been assassinated. What we do know is what Andrew Johnson thought and did. We also know that he was corrupt and "on the take," hence his impeachment. From what I was able to discover, he pardoned the members of the CSA in order for them to eventually get back what they lost and to line his own pockets. As you pointed out, there never was a trial. Regardless of the pardon, they still did the crime.

He pushed for peonage. It was his nod to the plantation owners. It was a way for them to get almost free labor. There were laws put into place that allowed the "Southern Police," also known as the "Patrollers" to pick up blacks, former slaves or not, and arrest them for silly made up crimes that no white person would have been arrested for doing. When they couldn't pay the fines, they were pressed into what would be the equivalent of a chain gang. The law then "leased them out" to farmers and manufacturers. The laws were arbitrary. A black preacher couldn't preach without a permit and those were rarely granted. Jim Crow grew out of that. Peonage stayed on the books until WWII. During that time and well past WWII, the south did everything they could to keep blacks from voting. The Constitution stated that they could, but they instituted poll taxes that they couldn't hope to pay and literacy tests that they couldn't pass. They didn't think that through because it also eliminated poor whites from voting. Much of that went on during your definition of the Civil Rights Movement that caused the signing of the Civil Rights Act. As I stated, that Act did not stop racism, segregation, promote integration, and inequality.

You're fond of quoting actual laws on the books and amendments to the Constitution, but just because they are there, doesn't mean that everyone follows them and allows others access to those rights.

The fact that the Confederate Flag is a slap to the face of the ancestors of slaves is my opinion. I get that you don't want to take down memorials of any kinds that actually name persons who died for any war. That would be sad, but lots of those statues/monuments are not about the actual soldiers, but are just the generals and other officers. It made sense to someone 100+ years ago to honor/celebrate those people. it's time to move on and think about the whole population of this country and not just the few who want to use these racist symbols to celebrate their ancestors.

As I said earlier, perhaps you think that you aren't racist or don't intend to sound like you are, and maybe you aren't. Your posts seem otherwise or at least show your total lack of empathy to the ancestors of slaves in order to honor your ancestors who may have owned black people, participated in peonage, kept someone from voting, etc. I don't know you and I don't mean to insult you, but what you toss out there with all your well thought out and eloquent quotes from history books only perpetuate what this country need to toss into the garbage.

I fully expect you to send me another long rant with this date and that law and your opinions. Feel free. Just realize that my opinions are my thoughts based on the research that I have done and from speaking to people. If I don't respond, it's probably because I've deleted this article and therefore this thread.

Bill

I just want to know why the the voters of Loudoun County can't vote on the removal of the statute .

amerigirl

How would they even go about doing that? That is why we elected the officials to take care of matters like this.

Pablo

They voted on it when they voted out the prior Republican-aligned majority.

jbsets

AshWilliam I can't figure out how to respond to a response to a response to a post. It just sort of ends. You ask about that long post about peonage post Civil War. Someone wrote that and posted it on FB. It got a shared a few times before it made it to me. I copied it to save it for myself. However, before I shared it, I made sure that I did my research. Peonage was the precursor to Jim Crow. It was a series of "laws" developed to keep Black people enslaved legally. Much of what happens around the country today comes directly from peonage. Very sad stuff.

Bob jackson

Hey jdsets,you must be an English professor since all you want to do is pick apart our comments .I challenge you anytime to match your knowledge with me. .You have no clue ,you didn't add any meaningful comment to this discussion , you just want to pick apart our grammar ,.typical liberal response. Point the finger at something else rather than the article. Nothing but degrading comments , Insultung others intelligence is not what this conversation is about , and by the way you show me anywhere on any government document where you can check the slot for an Italian American , yet African American , which I refuse to use , is an absolute choice ,although very divisive . We are all Americans , just some of us , like you,have no heart and fall in line with everyone else, instead of speaking your mind and formulating your own opinion .so it's best that you stay silent . As a matter of fact I'll buy you a one way ticket back to Italy ,as long as you stay there!!!

jbsets

The census asks for ethnic background not just race. I thought it was odd. What do I get as half Italian, 7% Irish, 3% English/Welsh, 1% Scandinavian, 3% Spanish (like from Spain), and the rest was categorized by Ancestry as North Western European, which apparently includes Germany, France, Belgium, Switzerland. No clue what the Federal govt plans to do with that info.

Did you read what you said above? Full of insults. I guess you subscribe to the eye for an eye philosophy. You think that I'm mean, so you're going to be mean right back. Poor me.

Never been to Italy but would love for you to send me on a vacation there once the pandemic is over.

ChocolateDinosaur

How are you feeling today, SD? [innocent]

El Vez

Guess what....in 5 years when all the dust has settled and all the past "wrongs" have been "righted,......" people that are bright, hard-working and honest will still have an advantage over those who are waiting for a life well-lived to be handed to them by liberal politicians.

amerigirl

Oh please the republicans are the party of greed. Anyway what does that have to do with the article????[offtopic][offtopic][offtopic][offtopic]

Voltaire

AG--Wow. The "party of greed". What is this the 1980s? Please. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that mentality. To quote Gordon Gekko, "Greed is good." Since we are reminiscing about the "decade of excess", I wish we had a President now like President Reagan. Since we like to make characterizations, here's one for you: Democrats are the party of excessive tax, regulation, and spending.

amerigirl

Hit a nerve? Trump has got to be one of the greediest people ever. He never like to pay people for their work. He gives tax breaks to hi friends and you know he will call in those favors later. all while increasing the deficit at record speed.

Voltaire

AG--No, not really. Personally, I agree with Gordon Gekko's statement. So, it is wrong if Republicans spend excessively but when the Democrats want to excessively spend taxpayer dollars and enlarge Government, then that is acceptable, no? Really? No, in both cases it is the height of fiscal irresponsibility. The same rules also apply to the state government, this county's government and school board. As I have said, I am going to ENJOY watching this County get a wake up call from Wall Street and the "bond vigilantes" when they start lowering the County's credit ratings and causing interest rates on County debt to skyrocket. It is time that someone take the punch bowl away from this group of fiscally irresponsible individuals.

Mike Kay

LOL @ Voltaire quoting Gordon Gekko! I hate to tell you, but that wasn't supposed to be taken literally, quite the opposite. BTW, hope you enjoy paying for the billionaire and corporate tax cuts that weren't used to hire anyone but Cayman bankers and underage Asian workers. Since there's never a spending cut to go with these breaks, it means someone else has to make up the lost revenue (when the loans come due). Enjoy your GOP mythology and the "invisible hand" fantasies.

Voltaire

Mike Kay—I hate to tell you that I don’t give a toss what you think that Gordon Gekko quote is supposed to mean. Are you Oliver Stone? No, so get stuffed. People can interpret quotations from movies any way that they want. Cute. Are you not planning to pay income tax? So, you will get to enjoy paying taxes too. BTW, you don’t know what assets I have and where they are located! Furthermore, as a money manager, I can move my money to various locations across the globe. It appears that you need a refresher course in international finance. So, when the Democrats in this country attempt to wreck this economy, I can make money in other parts of the globe. I win no matter what---think you can handle that pal?

amerigirl

You know very well if the reublicans weren't raising the deficit the dems wouldn't have to try to correct it every time they took office. I may not be christian but I do agree with this; Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” 1 Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.F

Voltaire

AG—Did I say that Republicans weren’t culpable for being fiscally irresponsible? No, I stated that BOTH parties are fiscally irresponsible. The quotation from my original comment is as follows: “So, it is wrong if Republicans spend excessively but when the Democrats want to excessively spend taxpayer dollars and enlarge Government, then that is acceptable, no? Really? No, in both cases it is the height of fiscal irresponsibility. The same rules also apply to the state government, this county's government and school board.” As to the biblical reference, thanks, however, weren’t you the one who, in another article, was criticizing me for making moral judgments on people? Yet, that is what is being done here which is hypocritical, no?

amerigirl

Volt, yes, I apologize.

jbsets

You do realize that "Greed is good" in Wall Street was not meant to be something good?

amerigirl

KKK you see dot like that often, the made up ones? you should get your eyes checked.

Bill

And the Democratic party is the party of the KKK. And now BLM and ANTIFA.

ALL HATE GROUPS.

amerigirl

They are separate entities, no matter who has lied to you and told you they aren't. The republican and democratic parties switched platform years ago and those who would have bee KKK then would be republican now. How can you even say the same party that would support the KKK would support BLM? You don't know much about ANTIFA, it a very loosely put together group, trump hates them because they took away from his inauguration bluster and has wanted to do something about them ever since. But even Bill Barr testified before Congress n Wednesday that they are not well organized. Thy not to watch so much fake news and propaganda news and get something with some ethics.

Mike Kay

El Vez: Oh, you mean investment bankers will finally be paid what they're worth? About 1/5th of what they "earn" now?

Voltaire

Mike Kay--Cute. I seriously doubt you even know what investment banking is. Jealous?

amerigirl

Snark, aren't you the one who gave bigdaddy a hard time for saying that people were morons because they didn't understand something?

Voltaire

AG—your interpretation of my comment is subjective. No, I did not call Mike Kay a “moron”. However, my response’s level of sarcasm is directly proportional to his sarcastic comment that “….you mean investment bankers will finally be paid what they're worth? About 1/5th of what they "earn" now?” There is nothing wrong with that. Mike Kay, in his comment is making a snide reference in relation to investment banking and deserved the type of response that he got. Also, I am not making judgments about a person’s character as BigDaddyVA was doing in another article.

pvilleresident

I stand corrected, the original article I read was not clear on who removed it. Randall is still crooked.

amerigirl

If you think Randall is still crooked then you didn't bother checking out what she said either and should stand corrected twice.

Pre-yuppieLoudouner

The urban transplant,Rust Belt refugee,citiot,bandwagon-riding Offendenistas have taken over Loudoun County.At least I have my memories of what a peaceful,beautiful place it once was.One more thing,a little bit "off-topic";.Someday I'll sell my farm to a developer and leave this yuppie paradise.That'll have the NIMBYS squeaking and beeping.

amerigirl

How warped, you mean the good old days when everyone knew their place and you were privileged because you were a white male? .

Pre-yuppieLoudouner

Yep

Mike Kay

Pre-Yuppie: "Offendistas"? You mean the fake christian, gov't hating, white collar crime enabling, TrumpTards who now call themselves "Republicans"? The ones who incessantly whine about their "liburtees!" and "Freedumbs" (to infringe on the liberties of others), and being persecuted for THEIR persecution of anyone who doesn't fit their Christo-fascist mold? What a bunch of RINOs!

pvilleresident

This is a complete waste of Taxpayer money and county resources. The UDC was given until September 7 to remove the statue. If this was after September 7 I would be ok with it, as the UDC didn't keep their end of the deal. This is just another example of Dictator Randall and her cronies abusing power. Wake up Loudoun residents before its too late.

RoundHellian

What was a waste of taxpayer money? Please elaborate on that. The UDC removed their soldier. They organized the removal at their leisure without any further dictation from the lovely BOS. I will agree Loudoun needs to wake up...The group gentlemen who spent their time removing the statue had a lovely citizen who was intoxicated screaming things at them. Those men were there dedicated to removing and protecting that statue and transporting it to its holding spot. However I do not think taxpayers paid for the actual removal. Just their taxes being wasted on absurd issues made up by Randall. The other BOS members should be ashamed to be associated with and ashamed for not having the balls to stand up to pure BS.

Loudounest

It is too late! The statue left town on Monday.

GoodOlLoudoun

"Traitors to our Country" is the cry heard.

First there were NO ZERO NONE Confederates tried of treason.

Second there was no law against Session.

Third formal declarations and public votes were taken and US Government informed of each State's Session.

Fourth many of the then Union officials civil and military resigned from their positions before joining with their Southern state or the Confederate government.

Efforts were taken then but seem completely ignored today to ensure no acts were considered treasonous.

amerigirl

Good ol boy, yep they were traitors to the US. First there was a reason that the Union decided not to charge anyone with treason, it is not that they couldn’t have. I’m guessing you meant there was no law against succession? Treason in the Constitution is levying war against the United States but the Union decided not to charge anyone with it because they were working toward peace between the states. Yes, they could have but it would not have been productive. Third it didn’t matter if the US govt was informed. Fourth, so? There is a reason that people refer to brother fighting brother when it comes to the civil war.

sol9001

You might be a racist

LeesburgFan

Wish LTM could have included, or picked up the phone and found out 1) did DOC pay for the removal or we the taxpayers? 2) is the statue going to DOC (as the Board voted) 3) if so, does the DOC have plans of putting the statute somewhere else, such as the Balls Bluff cemetary?

amerigirl

Try emailing your rep I'm sure they would let you know. DOC picked up the statue themselves. I bet you could call or email DOC to find out what their intentions are. You could probably even make suggestions.

Pac1010

This is something written by PGA golfer Bubba Watson but it speaks volumes :

" I’m so confused right now. I see signs all over saying black lives matter. I’m just trying to figure out which black lives matter. It can’t be the unborn black babies. They are destroyed without a second thought. It’s not black cops. They don’t seem to matter. It’s not my black conservative friends. They are told to shut up if they know what’s best for them by their black counterparts. It’s not black business owners. Their property does not mean anything. It’s not blacks who fought in the military. Their statues are destroyed by the black lives matter protesters with disdain. So which black lives matter again?

Black Lives Matter. Of course they do! Then when multiple black police officers and individuals were killed during the “peaceful protests”. I don’t see any outrage? Black individually owned businesses burned to the ground. Silence. Deadliest weekend in Chicago. NOTHING!!

I can’t keep up. I just can’t. I’m exhausted trying to figure out what we’re all supposed to do, believe, and be offended and outraged by next.

Two months ago, First Responders were all the rage. In fact, they were heroes. We gave them free coffee, meals, and cheers as they drove by. Today, we hate them and want them defunded because they can’t be trusted.

Two months ago, truck drivers were the heroes, as well, for keeping America moving and the grocery stores stocked. Today we block the roads with protesters, drag them out of the cabs and beat them half to death.

Nurses and Doctors are still cool for now. But they may be unemployed. They too are heroes, unless of course they truly believe all lives matter. Then they’re filled with hate and are part of problem like so many others.

Just 45 days ago protests weren’t “essential” and were considered criminal, selfish and a murderous activity. Today they are gloriously critical and celebrated. All of the obvious criminal and murderous activities are simply ignored. If you protest about lock downs for freedom, you are selfish and you will spread a virus. If you protest, loot, and riot for social justice, you are a warrior and the virus fades to the background.

Trust the experts. No, not those experts. Don’t wear masks ... wear masks, but only good ones. Wait, don’t wear masks, wear anything as a mask. Never mind on the masks. Not sure, but if you don’t, you hate people because you could be an asymptomatic spreader. Wait. That's not a thing anymore?

For 3 months, NOTHING was more important than social distance. In fact, we gave up all of our liberties for it. We canceled schools, medical and dental procedures, yet allowed the murder of babies, canceled activities, closed businesses, eliminated every spring rite of passage from prom to graduation, denied people funerals, even at Arlington, and we wrecked the economy for it. Then came social justice, and social distance was no more. Now things are more cut and dried though. A thousand people at three memorials for someone they never even met. It's a matter of "respect". But you can only assemble 100 or less people.

I’m really confused now. Look at the data, NO, not that data. Do the math. No, you can’t do the math like that. Only the experts can understand the data and math. What do you mean other cities/states/governors are interpreting the data differently? Pools are safe in Indiana, but not Michigan? Playgrounds are safe in your town but not mine? Amusement parks are safe in Florida but not Ohio, nor Michigan.

If you are silent you are part of the problem. If you speak, you are part of the problem. If you have to ask, you don’t understand. If you don’t ask, you don’t care.

It’s all so predictable, tedious, and exhausting. Nothing adds up. It’s one gigantic Math life problem, with ever changing denominators that I’m sure the media and politicians are eagerly ready to solve for us...until the next "crisis".

So, for now I pray. I pray God will heal our land and bless the United States of America! Bless us with Wisdom, Kindness, Gentleness, Mercy, Love, Peace and Healing. Things that Really Matter! We all Matter in God's Eyes! "

springerdad

I don't think Bubba Watson posted this. This is being passed around on Facebook linked to many different people.

LeesburgFan

That was my thought reading this excellent narrative.......I've followed Bubba Watson for many years on the PGA Tour.......never knew him to author something or anything like this.

jbsets

Bubba Watson the golfer or Bubba Wallace the NASCAR driver? I think that some people are confusing the two.

LoudounClear

Thanks for the nonsense. We love it when you identify something you think looks smart. Trump, another golfer, speaks volumes but it's self-serving, sociopathic gibberish. That last paragraph would read better if it said, "Bless this land and lift the heavy hand of the orange idiot off America so we can get back to what made America the envy of the world."

Loudounone

Wow - you are angry. Please take a walk or drink a beer

jbsets

If you believe in a God

Mike Kay

PAC:OK, we get it. A cop kneeling on someone's throat for 8 minutes, until they're dead, means nothing to you. Got it!

Loudoun4Trump

Can we use the same crane to get rid of Dr. Williams....that would be more productive and helpful to the kids of Loudoun....

VeAyLifer

Fool and a person that wants to spread the virus.

yellowbird

Cry me a river! Glad it is gone and never should have been placed there in the first place. Get over it!

Bob jackson

If the blm insists on changing any and everything wirh ties to the civil war and slavery,then how about all negros going to city hall and changing there names ,since they are carrying there ancestors slave masters' names.Also if I create an organization called , the historically white colleges and universities,will that be considered racist?Calling themselves African Americans is absolutely a divisive term ,I don't call myself an English/Irish American , they are simply Americans get over it, stop your whinnying and go to work like the rest of the country does .We all know this is the Democrats race war to cause chaos in this country leading into the November elections , sorry it's not gonna work , remember last time the polls had Hillary way ahead and Trump was already defeated ,so America the leftist media is so corrupt don't buy into these polls showing joe Biden way ahead because sooner or later he'll have to have a debate and we 'll all see just how lost he really is.

hardestworkingamerican

That is write my brother! It is over this is deperation of the deepest kind. The clintons and obama see the righting on the wall and made up the fake flu. Hashtag fake flu. Wake up sheeple you sound so foolish quoting science and the science! Read the Bible for heaven sake and learn to trust in God's plan.

jbsets

OMG. Did you go to school with Bob. Write is what you do with a pen and paper (or maybe a crayon.) Right means correct. You have them flipped. Foolish quoting science. You probably didn't go to school at all. You're probably running around getting infecting and then spreading it to innocent people including your loved ones. "The Bible is an ancient document, written by ancient people, about an ancient topic." That's a quote for a man of God who preaches at a church. Bet you eat lobster, shrimp, and shellfish.

jbsets

Wow. Negros? Seriously? Guess we should be grateful that you didn't say "colored folks" or the "N" word. I consider myself to be Italian American and I'm only half Italian. Your grammar and spelling is atrocious. "Whinnying" is what a horse does. I think you mean whining. I'm ashamed to be conservative when I read this poo poo

Chubbs

Great job! No time for bigots!

Ammitch

Like it or not, Leesburg was part of the Confederate States during the Civil War. That statue was there to memorialize those that fought during that war. Most people didn't even know what the statue was there for except that they saw it on social media.

KK153

give it 5 years... that fact will be washed down the memory hole as well and people will say Loudoun led the charge to preserve the union and fought for the North

jbsets

Holy poo poo! You sound proud of being on the losing end of a Civil War against your country. It's a bad thing that the US won against a bunch of traitorous states, VA being one of the them? You aren't proud of being a US citizen of the 50 states? Surely that's not what you mean? You might want to consider how you word things in the future. You certainly wouldn't want some Yankee reading this to think that you are unAmerican.

KK153

1. I wasn't alive 150 years ago.. I didn't fight in the civil war, so I'm not on the losing side of anything there.

2. I am however a Veteran of this great county...took the oath, served on active duty. How about you? You serve? Or do you just want to pontificate on what it is to serve this country.

CatoctinBlockin

Perhaps you don't know the full history of Loudoun County as it relates to the civil war. The Loudoun Rangers fought for the union due, where the abolitionist sympathies of Quakers in Western Loudoun were prevalent in the non pacifist families. The fact that we memorialize Mosby's Raiders and named our schools after them is evidence of the confederate daughters propaganda and the whitewashing of an ugly story about slavery and the oppression of black americans. The south has been celebrating the losers and attempting to rewrite history since Appomattox. Too bad that Loudoun was dominated by confederate sympathies for so long, as we in fact had historical figures who fought on the right side of history.

SHPS

On the evening of the 20th day of July 2020, Loudoun's Silent Sentinel was retrieved and taken to a "temporary residence", without fanfare and thankfully no unjust racist hatred mobs to witness this most devastating historic event. We are saddened that our culture and populace has lost historic perspective and the education system has so biased and polarized public opinion against the Confederacy and the Americans in the Southern States during the mid 19th century. A Northern Monument representation was suggested and approved by the BOS long ago, but the racial bias of the many BOS prevailed. Presenting the whole story honestly, how it unfolded, and letting people of all ages draw their own informed conclusions would obviously have been the better path in lieu of vilifying and dividing our Loudoun Citizens.

For membership & more information visit us at http://southernhistoricpreservationsociety.org/membership-…/

BLT

There is so much Southern history that deserves to be celebrated. Going to war to preserve the right to run forced labor camps isn't something worth eulogizing. Starting a little racist club in Purcellville isn't helping.

KK153

the only forced camps in US history was under a Democrat... FDR

springerdad

KK - I suggest you read this.

Slavery by Another Name History Background

https://bento.cdn.pbs.org/hostedbento-prod/filer_public/SBAN/Images/Classrooms/Slavery%20by%20Another%20Name%20History%20Background_Final.pdf

LoudounClear

You're saying the enslaved people volunteered? Is 153 some sort of code for the final K in your screen name?

KK153

I knew one would bring the bed wetters out... God, it never gets old

jbsets

So people owned by other people is okay with you? It's not slavery? Now if you are talking about the Japanese American Internment camps under FDR during WWII, I apologize. I'm thinking not though. I'm guessing you have no clue what I am talking about. Slavery is forced labor with no legal escape.

Post Civil War peonage was instituted to prolong slavery legally and to make the southerns feel better about losing their property...human beings.

Our criminal legal system has been used since to continue forced labor. “In 1866, one year after the 13 Amendment was ratified, AL, TX, LA, AR, GA, MS, FL, TN, and SC leased convicts for labor (peonage). This made arresting Blacks very lucrative, which is why hundreds of White men were hired as police officers. Their primary responsibility was to search out and arrest Blacks who were in violation of Black Codes [Virginia also had Black Codes that made certain conduct criminal only for Black people.]. Once arrested, these men, women and children were leased to plantations where they harvested cotton, tobacco, sugar cane. Or they would be leased to work at coal mines, or railroad cos. The owners of these businesses would pay the state for this prison labor. After the passing of the 13th Amendment, more than 800,000 Blacks were part of the system of peonage, or re-enslavement through the prison system. Peonage didn’t end until after World War II began.

The 13th Amendment declared that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." (Ratified in 1865) Lawmakers used this phrase to make petty offenses crimes. When Blacks were found guilty of committing these crimes, they were imprisoned and then leased to the same businesses that lost slaves This system of convict labor is called peonage.

The majority of White Southern farmers and business owners hated the 13th Amendment because it took away slave labor. To appease them, the Fed Govt turned a blind eye when southern states used this clause in the 13th Amendment to establish laws called Black Codes. Examples of Black Codes:

• If a Black person did not have a job, he or she could be arrested and imprisoned on the charge of vagrancy or loitering.

• LA: It was illegal for a Black man to preach to Black congregations without special permission in writing from the president of the police. If caught, he could be arrested and fined. If he could not pay the incredibly high fines, he would be forced to work for an individual, or go to jail or prison where he would work until his debt was paid off.

• SC: If the parent of a Black child was considered vagrant, the judicial system allowed the police and/or other govt agencies to “apprentice” the child to an "employer." Males could be held until the age of 21, and females could be held until 18. Their owner had the legal right to inflict punishment on the child for disobedience, and to recapture them if they ran away.

Peonage is systemic racism established and perpetuated by govt systems. Slavery was made legal by the U.S. Govt. Segregation, Black Codes, Jim Crow and peonage were all made legal by the govt, and upheld by the judicial system. These acts of racism were built into the system, which is where the term “Systemic Racism” is derived.

Bet you'd being singing a different tune if you weren't white

CatoctinBlockin

Indian Removal Act, Trail of Tears, don't forget how the natives of this land were treated by the US gov., though those are historical events no doubt celebrated by Trump enthusiasts.

AshWilliams

JBSets - I was not aware of quite a few of the items in your post. Do you have a good source you can recommend to learn more?

amerigirl

How about the ones now? They come with the special amenity of child separation.

KK153

Good job Loudoun! Soon you will turn the entire county into a leftist paradise like Portland. Keep focusing on all the "shiny stuff"... May you get the government and the county you deserve.

Voltaire

KK153--Unless you plan on moving, you are going to get the same government and county as the rest of us...

KK153

there are folks in this world that say perhaps own property in multiple locations...let's say even multiple states. As I said, enjoy you government :)

Voltaire

KK153--So, you think you are the only one in this area who owns multiple property/assets in various states. Think again.

KK153

I don't really care what other people own. i know what I own. And i know where it's located. And i know what that means for the long haul... and I couldn't "give a toss" as you are so fond of saying about what others do or don't own. You're stupid comment was "less you plan on moving". You said it, not me Fauxtaire

Voltaire

KK153—OK. Your comment was as follows: “…there are folks in this world that say perhaps own property in multiple locations...let's say even multiple states. As I said, enjoy you government.” I simply responded to the point that you are NOT the only one in this county with assets. It is a real simple concept, no? BTW, if you are going to use the Queen’s English, then use the correct syntax. The next to the last sentence in your comment is wrong. It should read as follows: “Your stupid comment was “less you plan on moving”.” You are right. I don’t give a toss about what you or others are doing. Since we are using British version of the English language, here’s another one for you….get stuffed.

jbsets

And you'll pull out your guns and start shooting people in order for society to stay mired in the past. What is the matter with you?!?!?!?!

KK153

don't have to... the weight of what's coming will take care of itself. The inmates have seen the weakness of their PC masters... won't be long before they start eating their own. Then everyone will wonder what happened.

LoudounClear

Like Matt Gaetz going after Liz Cheney I guess. KK153 you are joke, like the Colbert Report, right?

jbsets

What does that even mean?

Mike Kay

KK(K?): "Leftist". Laughing out loud. There's a website called "private islands for sale". Check it out!

LongtimeLoudouner

It was smart to remove it during the night with no announcement to avoid an incident or Our president’s new troops from stopping them. I think it’s ridiculous how some are for keeping confederate emblems around. We all know what they really mean, even though those who approve of them staying won’t come out and admit it. Take your covers off, quit with the good reasons and own the real reason or be quiet.

Voltaire

LL--OK. Can you really make a declarative statement like that? Do we REALLY know what the Confederate emblems mean? No, you can't make a statement like that as you cannot state what everyone's motivations are. For some, the Confederate emblems are part of their family's history and they are entitled to recognize that, as long as they do not bother others with it. It is not right to belittle them for honoring their family members. The historical record also provides clarity on what the Confederate emblems mean. Who are YOU to judge these people? Get off the holier than thou attitude as you don't have the right or authority to do that. Finally, given that the Confederate statue in Leesburg is not on Federal property, President Trump's Executive Order does not apply and therefore Federal law enforcement would not intervene in the removal of said statue.

Walkaway

I believe Mr. Cline could have written the article in a manner that was not bias. That was geared towards the history of the time and not so much pandering to please his boss.

springerdad

I have a bet we will get to 200 posts by the time happy hour starts at the Pub tomorrow. Lets go everyone I don't feel like paying.

ChocolateDinosaur

Cheers, may your hangover be crippling and severe!

springerdad

I will raise a pint to the statue being gone. You are a real charmer : )

amerigirl

I'd gladly buy you that pint.

springerdad

AG - We may have differences in opinions but I would gladly have a beer with you.

BLT

Will only be 150 is you don't count yours. And trust me, no one else does...

springerdad

BLT - Oh that hurts. Yet you took the time to reply which secretly means you have a crush on me and I am flattered.

I am so glad you think your posts are so much more important and are changing the world.

hardestworkingamerican

Sounds like youve gotten a jump on the drinking there Mr Sandwich

Voltaire

BLT--actually, the count now is 237.

Voltaire

Congratulations! We hit 200 posts by 6:00 PM today. Enjoy your drink! [smile]

jbsets

Are you at 200 yet? [rolleyes]

Walkaway

Removing this statue accomplished nothing. No lives are saved. All it really does is move it from one place to another. Instead of looking at the world negatively why not put a positive on it. The Battle of Balls Bluff was fought here. This could have been used as education. There are other statues on the grounds. Why couldn't the city make this an environmental to educate. Add to it. Put Union and memorial's to those enslaved there as well. Promote Leesburg. Now Leesburg is the town that took down their "Confederate" statue and it doesn't even state anything about the Confederacy on it to be technical. I appreciate it's not damaged but seriously if your on here happy and all about all owners of slaves monuments must go then you are showing us all that you are for the Mount Rushmore, Jefferson Memorial, Washington Monument, and thousands of other buildings, works of art, places, universities, state names, and more that you are against. Next it seems you will be for the Green New Deal. That means no windows. That means no Freadom Tower.

Think about it...

Mike Kay

Walkaway: Wow! You'd probably be amazed that those of us who grew up where there were NO Civil War related statues know about the Civil War! Astonishing, right?! Ever hear of a thing called a book, or a history class?

Walkaway

Yes I do. I'm not from here. I've only lived here 6 years thank goodness. Seems so many here are sucked into the belief that Democracy and Democrat are the same. I'm from the midwest. Grew up poor. Had to work hard every day. Not here in the land of plenty. I'm a teacher. Yes, with a history certification in two states. Students learn in a variety of ways. Not just books. There are visual, auditory, and tactile learners. Many do well in groups or individually. Some need assistance or accommodations. Others do better with direct instruction and some a more proactive approach. Either way your response doesn't represent what I feel to be adequate for educating anyone. Especially to meet the needs of the VDOE or any other state.

jbsets

Telling us about how students learn is so far off the subject...not at all what Mike Kay was trying to say. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I took that to mean that he thought that maybe YOU should read a book.

Thank God I don't have kids in your class. Teachers aren't supposed to be so biased. I can only imagine what you teach and what you leave out. How long you have lived here and being poor from the Midwest means absolutely nothing in this discussion.

Lawman

Yes it did, it ain’t there no more!!! Lol.

amerigirl

It has nothing to do with saving lives, it has to do with the symbolism od an oppressor guarding a courthouse where people of all colors go to do business. The only fighting that took place there was a small skirmish, not the battle of Balls Bluff. That wouldn’t be very educational if you don’t have the right location. The statue did state something about the confederacy. It was dedicated; “in memory of the confederate soldiers of Loudoun County VA erected May 28, 1908” during the Jim Crow era. I don’t think people on here are after every slave owner, just those who wanted to remain slave owners after the civil war. What does One World Trade center have to do with it?

jbsets

Thought about it...

They could have replaced it with a "Lee Family" monument that celebrates the Lee Family for whom Leesburg is named. That would celebrate Leesburg. It was Leesburg long before Robert E was born. They could have talked about his grandfather, father, and uncle who were Revolutionary War heros. No reason not to mention him and his devotion to the Confederacy on such a monument.

I have to say that I am offended about all the "you" comments. Maybe you don't mean it this way, but comes off as condescending...you don't agree with me 100%, you're against me. You probably didn't mean it like that, but just because I don't agree with you on everything you have to say, doesn't make me a bad person.

As for the list of monuments, places, works of art, etc... (a list that is a direct quote from a Trump speech transcript), you're just being silly. Less than 1% of the American people want to see any of those things changed. If a private university wants to change the name, they can do that. Lots of these changes, none of us have any control over them whether we agree completely with one side or some of each or whatever.

sol9001

You might be a racist

David Dickinson

I am embarrassed that the people in Loudoun are too stupid to know the difference between a war memorial honoring war dead and a monument to the Confederacy.

amerigirl

What you should be embarrassed about is the those who are too stupid to realize that a memorial to a group that fought this country was standing in front of a hall of justice instead of in a cemetery or museum.

KK153

Hall of Justice? Was batman there? how about the wonder twins?

jbsets

What are you...10?

David Dickinson

Are you going to get rid of the other 5 war memorials that were right next to this one?

LoudounClear

You miss the point of the statue, David. It wasn't about memorializing the war. It was about reinforcing the return of white supremacy to the South in the years after Reconstruction.

Loudoundad

Even Ken Burns said we need to remove Confederate statues from public land. Are you telling us Ken Burns is ignorant when it comes to the difference between a war memorial honoring war dead and a monument to the Confederacy? Really?

Voltaire

Loudoundad--I will give you one better. General Robert E. Lee, after the conclusion of the Civil War, told colleagues that he didn't think that there should be ANY statues honoring the Confederates. He believed, correctly, that these statues would continue to allow the wounds of the Civil War to fester and slow the development of this nation. He also felt that way about preserving battlefields. It would appear that he was right.

LoudounClear

W.E.B.DuBois had the right take on Lee:

"Each year on the 19th of January there is renewed effort to canonize Robert E. Lee, the greatest confederate general. His personal comeliness, his aristocratic birth and his military prowess all call for the verdict of greatness and genius. But one thing–one terrible fact–militates against this and that is the inescapable truth that Robert E. Lee led a bloody war to perpetuate slavery. Copperheads like the New York Times may magisterially declare: “of course, he never fought for slavery.” Well, for what did he fight? State rights? Nonsense. The South cared only for State Rights as a weapon to defend slavery. If nationalism had been a stronger defense of the slave system than particularism, the South would have been as nationalistic in 1861 as it had been in 1812.

No. People do not go to war for abstract theories of government. They fight for property and privilege and that was what Virginia fought for in the Civil War. And Lee followed Virginia. He followed Virginia not because he particularly loved slavery (although he certainly did not hate it), but because he did not have the moral courage to stand against his family and his clan. Lee hesitated and hung his head in shame because he was asked to lead armies against human progress and Christian decency and did not dare refuse. He surrendered not to Grant, but to Negro Emancipation.

Today we can best perpetuate his memory and his nobler traits not by falsifying his moral debacle, but by explaining it to the young white south. What Lee did in 1861, other Lees are doing in 1928. They lack the moral courage to stand up for justice to the Negro because of the overwhelming public opinion of their social environment. Their fathers in the past have condoned lynching and mob violence, just as today they acquiesce in the disfranchisement of educated and worthy black citizens, provide wretchedly inadequate public schools for Negro children and endorse a public treatment of sickness, poverty and crime which disgraces civilization.

It is the punishment of the South that its Robert Lees and Jefferson Davises will always be tall, handsome and well-born. That their courage will be physical and not moral. That their leadership will be weak compliance with public opinion and never costly and unswerving revolt for justice and right. it is ridiculous to seek to excuse Robert Lee as the most formidable agency this nation ever raised to make 4 million human beings goods instead of men. Either he knew what slavery meant when he helped maim and murder thousands in its defense, or he did not. If he did not he was a fool. If he did, Robert Lee was a traitor and a rebel–not indeed to his country, but to humanity and humanity’s God."

Voltaire

LoudounClear--well, the essay from W.E.B. Dubois is simply a subjective opinion by the writer on Robert E. Lee. I believe the conclusions reached in this 1928 essay are debatable. However, it does nothing to make Robert E. Lee's statement about not erecting statues for the Confederacy any less relevant. Robert E. Lee's statement is correct.

LoudounClear

These monuments and statues are history indeed...but it's the history of the people who erected them, not the events they purport to commemorate. They were erected to show Blacks that while maybe the South was discredited nationally because of the war and slavery, right here at home...as these statues show..we are still in charge and we control things. Stay in your place.

Voltaire

LoudounClear--OK. Contrary to public opinion, there is no one DEFINITIVE way to look at these monuments. Sure, what you present may be a reasonable interpretation. However, that is your viewpoint. Other people may view it differently and that is their right to do so. Some people look at them as commemorative pieces. That too is an acceptable interpretation.

LoudounClear

If you're ignorant of the history behind how that monument came to be in Leesburg...and on courthouses across the South...then you should be a bit more circumspect when calling others stupid.

jbsets

When I first read this, I read circumcised.

Ok I didn't. Just wanted to toss some levity into this.

jbsets

There is so much to be embarrassed about in this county.

Might have been a war memorial put in place in 1908, by actual daughters of the soldiers, but 112 years and 3-5 generations later, it represents something totally different. When people visit from all over the country and even the world, what they see is the South celebrating the Confederacy and the Civil War, a war fought to keep people enslaved legally for their entire lives. Maybe you and others in Loudoun County are ok with being thought poorly of for defending the statue. Why not stand up for moving it to another part of the city? What about replacing it with a monument that celebrates the entire Lee family for whom the city is named? His family included Revolutionary War heros. Why aren't people focusing on them? Why can't we move out of the early 20th century? There are so many awesome things about Leesburg, Loudoun county, and VA. Let's focus on the good things. We don't have to forget the bad, especially since we need to learn from it so we don't do it again. Let's be more like Germany. I think that we can all agree that Hitler was in the top 10 most horrible people to ever grace this earth. The Germans teach about him in the schools, but they don't put up monuments celebrating him. Let's put our energy into something positive...PLEASE

Voltaire

Jbsets--I most certainly appreciate your positive sentiment. There are some items for thought. You state, that the Confederate statue was originally intended to be a war memorial for the fallen citizens who fought for the Confederacy. Shouldn't the original representation still be what the statue represents today (3-5 generations later)? I wouldn't think that that representation would change over time. The statue has been removed and given to the United Daughters of the Confederacy so nobody should have to worry about that anymore. Now, if you want to get technical, the Revolutionary War Heroes can be compared to the Confederates. People believe that the Confederates were traitors to the United States. Well, the Revolutionary War Heroes are/were considered by the British to be traitors against the British Crown. That feeling still exists today. As for Germany, yes, you are correct that there are no statues of Hitler or his party. However, there are statues in every village/town where they pay their respects to their fellow villagers/townspeople who fought and died in World War II (and in some cases World War I) in the German Armed Forces. You could make the argument that the statue that was just removed is similar to that.

jbsets

I said it MIGHT have been erected as a war memorial by the actual daughters. As I wrote about the Revolutionary War heroes, I could see in my mind's eye you saying exactly what you said. The difference is that 99% of the country celebrates our independence from what is now known as Great Britain. I'd wager a guess that other former British colonies around the world also celebrate their independence. The same can probably be said of countries that got independence from the Dutch, Spanish, and French to name a few. (I remember being in the middle of writing a report on Ceylon for social studies when they renamed the country Sri Lanka. No search and replace in those days.) Back to my point. Pretty much only the southern states celebrated the Civil War then and now. I'm sure there are people in other states who do as well, just as there are those in the south who don't celebrate the Confederacy or slavery and might even be ashamed of their ancestors who did. Bottom line is that if you celebrate the Confederacy even to honor ancestors, you aren't giving any consideration to the ancestors of the slaves. In addition to being owned, they worked in horrendous conditions, were often beaten or even lynched for the fun of it, and what I would consider the worst, families were separated and sold to other owners and never saw spouses, parents, children ever again. Let's not forget the slave women who were raped by their owners or overseers and had children with them who also got sold away. Maybe Sally Hemings loved Thomas Jefferson or maybe she did what she could in order to create as decent a life as she could for herself and her kids. It was mighty generous of him to free his children upon his death but not a moment before that. How do you think the ancestors of these people feel every time they see the symbol of a war fought in order to keep their ancestors enslaved? How do you think they feel when they see these monuments/statues celebrating that war that were erected 50 years after that war? How do you think they felt 90+ years after the war when they were still getting lynched or beaten to death because of made up reasons? (Even if any of those lynched actually committed a crime, what happened to the right to a speedy trial or a trial at all? How do you think they feel about having to fight to get the rights that should have been afforded to them when the 13th an d15th amendments changed the Constitution? How do you think they feel 56 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed and they still have to fight to be treated equally? How about we consider how they are honored...or not?

Voltaire

Jbsets—OK. The former Confederate statue on the grounds of the Loudoun County Courthouse in Leesburg was erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. It is not an unreasonable conclusion to state that it was a war memorial. Confederate statues symbolize many different things to many different people. To some individuals, they are a symbol of American slavery – and these people want the monuments to remain, so that people never forget this part of the nation’s history. To others, it might symbolize the war that was fought between the North and the South. Some see the statues as symbols of state’s rights. Of course, the statues could also represent all of these things at once. You are correct that there are other former colonies of the British Empire that do celebrate their independence. The same logic would also apply to any and all former colonies under the control of the Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, and Dutch. That still does nothing to remove the point that the founders of this country, from the viewpoint of the Crown, are traitors. So, the comparison between the Confederates and the Revolutionary War Heroes still is valid.

No, I don’t believe that Southern states “celebrate” the Civil War. I believe that the Southern States acknowledge their history and their particular role in the Civil War but to say that they “celebrate” is bit of a stretch. Why do they do that? I think that one aspect is that the Civil War was mainly fought there and it had a major impact on the lives of the people in the South. People, whether victor or defeated remember the wars and battles that were locally involved much better than those that weren’t. People also remember the South’s values of state’s rights/freedoms from an oppressive government and nostalgia of a bygone era of Southern charm/gentility. Yes, racism is imbedded in this to some extent; however, most people in the South do not feel this way.

No, you cannot connect the recognition /honoring of one’s ancestors who fought/died for the Confederate States of America (CSA) with the ancestors of slavery. That premise is not logical. Individual families recognize/honor their own ancestors who fought/died, not for the institution of the CSA. Same logic applies to families who had ancestors who were slaves in the CSA. Those families recognize/honor their ancestors, not the institution of slavery. It is very wrong, from a historical perspective, to try to apply 2020 values on that period of time. This argument applies from the Civil War all the way back to 1607 when Jamestown was founded. I don’t believe that anyone is disputing that the institution of slavery was wrong. In fact, in parts of the African continent today, there is still active slavery. Why doesn’t the “moral majority” do something about that instead of re-litigating the past? Also, you cannot make the argument that ALL African Americans are opposed to Confederate statues/monuments. There was a poll done by Marist for the Public Broadcasting Service/National Public Radio that showed that approximately 44% of African Americans were opposed to removal of the statues. Also, A new Washington Post/ABC News poll from July 12, 2020 to July 15, 2020 showed that 52% of Americans are against removing Confederate statues….An even larger percentage of Americans, 68% oppose getting rid of statues honoring presidents who owned slaves. To speak for everyone is a blanket characterization and is wrong. On a similar note, you present various “what-if” scenarios and expect an individual to be able to speak for others. That is wrong and not doable. I cannot speak for those people as I don’t have the right to do that. Those individuals can make their own determinations/conclusions and that is perfectly acceptable. As for honoring slavery, yes, there are many museums found throughout the United States that focus on African American history and culture. Also, there are museums specifically dedicated to understanding the institution of slavery. For example, Whitney Plantation Museum in Louisiana and the Lest We Forget Slavery Museum in Philadelphia PA.

Bredon31

Well done to all involved. Racists have been there every step of the way to gnash teeth, but I think we’re making progress.

ChocolateDinosaur

It is an absolute delight to see all of you cowardly born losers soil yourselves over this. You have made my entire week! Keep the good times rolling here! Carry on.

Lawman

👍🏾

springerdad

Meanwhile here is some information that should be headline news.

Virginia is adding nearly 1,000 new cases of COVID-19 each day, a rate the state hasn't seen since June 1.

Northern Virginia reported 175 new cases Tuesday, continuing a trend of low COVID-19 cases per capita compared to other parts of the state. The region was averaging 685 a day at the end of May, according to data by the Virginia Department of Health.

The eastern region added 418 cases Tuesday, slightly lower than recent days. The central region added 196 cases, the most reported in a single day in more than a month. The southwest part of the state added 108 and the northwest added 99.

Locality Cases Hospitalizations Deaths

Loudoun 4,695 324 106

7-Day Positivity Rate | July 21

Health District Rate Trend

Loudoun 6.9 Up

Statewide Hospital and Nursing Home Data

Hospitalizations: 1,189 (up from 1,158 the previous day)

Peak Hospitalizations: 1,625 reached May 8

Patients in ICU: 258 (down from 265 the previous day)

Patients Discharged: 10,235 total

Nursing Home Patients: 472 confirmed positive cases (down from 464 the previous day)

https://www.insidenova.com/news/special/coronavirus/covid-19-rate-in-virginia-nears-1-000-new-cases-a-day/article_95609874-cb54-11ea-838a-03c4b87606b9.html

doverboy

In your Covid glee, how can 472 nursing home cases be a reduction from 464 the previous day?

springerdad

DB - Glee? I fear we will be moved back down a phase soon if we don't get our act together. I guess the paper made a mistake.

Here are two other interesting articles.

Virginia's coronavirus restrictions tougher than 39 other states'

https://www.insidenova.com/headlines/virginias-coronavirus-restrictions-tougher-than-39-other-states/article_62ad15ae-cb6f-11ea-b12b-6b4f9ecc503a.html

CDC's COVID-19 survey in Manassas identifies challenges in Hispanic community

https://www.insidenova.com/news/special/coronavirus/cdcs-covid-19-survey-in-manassas-identifies-challenges-in-hispanic-community/article_fcd018b6-cacf-11ea-af95-1fb556cc6599.html

BLT

You have a lot of nerve saying you're now concerned that the virus is spreading again. You have been one of the "let's open 'er up, Loudoun" voices shouting the loudest. Shame on you, fellow.

springerdad

BLT - That is total bull. I have always called for masks and social distancing. Try posting facts and not lies. I have called for pulling back and called for Northem to follow NJ and NY's role and make sure people quarantine themselves for 2 weeks from certain states.

Get your facts straight before you post stuff.

springerdad

Just the other day I posted this.

springerdad Jul 17, 2020 1:23pm

This is sad. So many lives lost.

What went wrong at the Virginia nursing home with the most coronavirus cases

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/annandale-healthcare-center-coronavirus-nursing-home/2020/07/16/42b9fcce-c2bb-11ea-b178-bb7b05b94af1_story.html

springerdad Jul 15, 2020 10:49am

Gov. Northam needs to act quickly or we will all be back in lockdown before we know it.

jbsets

Glee? Are you kidding? Please say that you aren't implying that someone is finding glee in 142,000 deaths. Or, are you one of those who thinks it's all a hoax?

Lawman

That hunk of junk is gone, good bye and good riddance. It should be at the bottom of the Potomac by now. The Revolution will be televised. See all of you in Washington DC August 8th.

rescue141

They got their way and took it down, so DON'T PUT ANYTHING ELSE UP IN ITS PLACE!

masonskeep

Terrorists and cowards do their best work in the dark.

Lawman

Like you mouth breathers were really going to do something.

Brian

As do our expert soldiers and intelligence agencies. Very Good things can be accomplished in the dark, my friend. It was smart to remove it at night without informing anyone. Otherwise, the news crews and hundreds of protestors would have been there to incite further violent actions in our community. Very smart move all around. Kudos to their planning committee.

amerigirl

That means the Daughters of the Confederacy are terrorist and cowards.

jbsets

I don't think Masonskeep thought that one through. [beam]

Mike Kay

Mason: No, the terrorists were defeated about 160 years ago. Sorry you can't keep the family tradition going. :(

yellowbird

This country will be in a much better place when people are no longer willing to be manipulated by political agendas - from either side. When genuine impartial thinking becomes more prevalent that politically inspired, we will on on our way to a better day.

Voltaire

Yellowbird--I agree with your premise. However, the likelihood of it becoming reality is not real promising.

Mike Kay

yellowbird: You mean like when the RINO Trumpers are put to rest this November? Agreed!

jbsets

Sadly, it has never happened in history...ever. That's why there are wars. Not going to ever happen in the future. Weirdly, that's what makes America great...freedom of speech, thought, religion, etc. Celebrate while you can because the federal soldiers are coming to take us all away

MitchT

We're renaming LEEsburg, right? And some say John Campbell, 4th Earl of Loudoun, owned slaves. So renaming the County also, right? Or is the statue just a virtue signal?

Voltaire

MitchT--There is no real evidence presented that Gen. John Campbell, 4th Earl of Loudoun owned slaves. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the name of Loudoun County.

Kenzop

There's no real evidence that he didn't own them either.

amerigirl

Now those are the words of a true conspiracy theorist. How do you feel about Qanon?

Voltaire

Kenzop--I seriously doubt that he did own them. Gen. John Campbell spent 2 years in the American Colonies as Governor General of Virginia before being recalled back to the UK by the Crown. Furthermore, most of the time that Gen. Campbell was in the American colonies, he was fighting the Seven Year War against the French and the Indians and was out in the theater.

KK153

There is vast evidence that the Duke of York, for whom NYC was named owned more than 50,000 slaves. So rename NYC?

amerigirl

Yeah he sounds real American

Voltaire

KK153--King James II was the Duke of York. Where did you get 50,000 from? If you are referring to his subjects, then they are subjects under the sovereign. That is different than slavery.

KK153

I see...so a British slave holder of 50,000 human slaves is OK with the left...got it.

Voltaire

KK153--First, I am NOT associated with the Left, thanks for trying. Second, you CANNOT make the statement that subjects to the British Crown are human slaves. Subjects under the British Crown have rights and freedoms which slaves do not. You need to brush up on European History.

jbsets

To clarify, the Duke of York went on to be crowned King James II. Do you consider the citizens of Great Britain to be slaves of Queen Elizabeth II? Her son Prince Andrew is the current Duke of York. If you like, I can name all the kings and queens between James II and Elizabeth II. Will that help you?

Voltaire

Jbsets--I agree with your clarification. No, the citizens of Great Britain are not slaves to HRH Queen Elizabeth II. They are subjects of the Crown and they have rights identified by the Constitution of the United Kingdom.

MitchT

Voltaire, you are right I have no smoking gun evidence--but you don't have exoneration to make such an absolute statement that there is nothing wrong with the name of the county. The Editor of Loudoun Now published a comment preceding a letter saying Campbell "most probably owned slaves." Several accounts talk about the Earl traveling with a large contingent of servants (which may all have been hired, with no slaves). I suspect the answer may be sitting in Balch Library, where there is certainly a copy of the biography written about Campbell--the author spoke there several years ago about that bio and the Earl. If the wokesters were consistent they'd already have run down there to see if there is something else they can virtue signal with. I don't need to know if Campbell owned slaves to think it's a bad idea to rename Loudoun, because I'm not deluded and self-righteous enough to pretend that if I lived at that time I would have for sure been without the prejudice common against Blacks even by many who opposed slavery (like Lincoln himself).

Voltaire

MitchT—Your initial post stated the following: “And some say John Campbell, 4th Earl of Loudoun, owned slaves. So, renaming the County also, right?” I pointed out in my initial post that there is no evidence that proves that he owned slaves. You, through your last point, has proved my premise right. So, using logic, since John Campbell, based on available evidence at hand, does not own slaves, then there should be no renaming of Loudoun County. Now, British aristocrats typically have a large contingent of servants, who are hired by the aristocrat, who supports the aristocrat, his/her family, and the estate. Since the Earl of Loudoun is a Scottish peerage, I suspect that the definitive answer would be with the Earl’s family in Scotland. I didn’t challenge you on whether or not you thought renaming Loudoun County was a good thing or not.

MitchT

Voltaire, please check your words. Your initial statement was "there is no evidence presented." Which I agreed with. But no presented evidence and no evidence existing are two different things. So you misquoted yourself, and nothing has been proved either way. I certainly agree that in a just outcome, we should not consider him a slaveowner without proof. I did not say or imply you challenged me on the renaming of Loudoun being a good idea or not... I brought up, in a point related to the wokescolds, that even if proof was found that he owned a slave, it's still not a good idea to rename Loudoun.

Mike Kay

MitchT: < Another racist who doesn't know he's a racist. :)

MitchT

Mike Kay, you are using the tactic that liberals use when they can't make a cogent argument. Call people racist. You don't know me, you can't point to a racist thing I've said, the best you got is acting like an 8-year-old on the playground. If you want to show people what a hateful bigot you are, by all means, continue.

Voltaire

MitchT--I totally agree with your viewpoint here.

Comment deleted.
MitchT

Lawman, what it really takes a low IQ for is to start calling people names before even figuring out what they are talking about. But I guess that requires reading and an attention span. Thomas Lee was a slaveowner. Had he been alive at the time it's not exactly a tossup as to which side of the War between the States he would have been on. Also, to those paying attention to what is going on around them, it's clear that the woke crowd doesn't care about actual facts or history. They are tearing down things that have zero relationship to racism (or even monuments to the fight against racism). So having Lee in the name (and he was part of the family of Robert E. Lee) is more than enough under woke standards to demand a name change, even not counting Thomas being a slaveowner. So, if one can think a little beyond one aspect or dimension of things, it's reasonable to tie removing the soldier statue to removing the name of the town.

jbsets

You're funny. Leesburg was named for the Lee family LONG before Robert E was born. There are Revolutionary War heros in the Lee family. I guess they'll be renaming all the towns in Mass and VA that are named after Native American tribes or individuals. I read in the Boston Globe that they are renaming Plimouth Plantation to leave out Plantation. They are rushing to reprint all the marketing pieces goodies because it's the 400th anniversary of the Pilgrims landing. Funny that when you say Plimouth Plantation, you don't think cotton or tobacco farms and slaves. I don't remember them having slaves, just indentured servants. (No I am not remembering because I am older than 400 and yes, it is spelled Plimouth with an i.)

Comment deleted.
jbsets

Right on! I'm not even from here and I know where the name Leesburg comes from.

Comment deleted.
Voltaire

Lawman--I would be careful about making snide remarks about learning. How about a lesson on sentence structure. The first sentence is wrong. It should be redone as follows: "...It takes a low IQ to equate a traitor's (or traitors') memorial with Lee in the name of Leesburg."

ChocolateDinosaur

I am here for the snowflakes melting. You are delivering! [love]

springerdad

Too hot for snowflakes. Eggs frying.

BLT

It is funny to see just how fragile those who side with the Confederacy really are. Poor little dears. Imagine how upset they'll be when they find out that the civil rights struggle didn't end in the 60's and it's actually going on right now too!

Voltaire

BLT--Do we like making blanket characterizations? First, the Confederate States of America officially ENDED in 1865 (155 years ago). Therefore, people do not SIDE with a non-existent entity. As for the "civil rights", yes the Civil Rights Movement ended in the 1960s. That is historical fact. If you call today's events a "civil rights movement" then you are sadly mistaken.

Lawman

Good one BLT. Again understanding that takes a certain amount of intelligence. Not much of that on this comment tread. Just whiners, oh and the winners. Lol

Mike Kay

Voltaire: "Therefore, people do not SIDE with a non-existent entity." Ha, surely you jest! Just read this thread!

Voltaire

Mike Kay--there is a difference between expressing one's views and physically siding with an entity. I don't see anyone wanting to rebuild the Army of Northern Virginia or asking for volunteers in this thread. Do you?

jbsets

V: I often agree with you and love how eloquent you are, but don't agree with you on this one. Yup, Confederacy ended in 1865. However, how do you justify your statement about the Civil Rights Movement? Just because Johnson signed the bill in 1964 doesn't mean that things magically changed. To this day, this country does everything it can to keep black people, Latinix, poor people, LGBTQ+ people, people of certain religions, and even women from fully getting or exercising those rights. The govt practices gerrymandering to make sure that certain political parties stay in power and also make it hard to vote. Blacks, Lantinx, now Asians, and those in the LGBTQ+ community are beaten and killed, not to mention how many mosques and temples have been blown up. When I was a kid in the 70s, women made 63 cents for every man's dollar. Today it's 81 cents. An improvement, but still not equal 45 years later. The law says that there is no such thing as separate but equal, but take a look around in metropolitan and rural areas around the country. The suburbs are only slight better. It's stuff like this that come up when something like Rodney King in the 90s and George Floyd now bring it all to the forefront. It's like Jim Crow laws that were establish post Civil War to keep the southerns happy after they lost their property. Google peonage too. Some of this is still going on. Just because it's a law, doesn't make it so.

Voltaire

Jbsets—I appreciate the compliments and totally understand that we may not be on the same side of the ledger on all topics. That is what makes a market, no? The historical record defines the Civil Rights Movement timeline from 1954 to 1968. The record also identified the Civil Rights Movement as follows: “….a non-violent mid-20th century freedom movement to gain legal equality and the enforcement of constitutional rights for African-Americans. The goals of the movement included securing equal protection under the law, ending legally established racial discrimination, and gaining equal access to public facilities, education reform , fair housing, and the ability to vote. I am not arguing that there are still areas that need additional reform. The problem I have with people comparing today’s events with the Civil Rights Movement is the nature of the protest activity. A key element of The Civil Rights Movement was the use of non-violent demonstrations. In today’s “movement”, the protests contain identifiable elements of violence. The nature of the violence, whether it is part of the overall movement or not is subject to debate. However, the incorporation of violence does make it different and hard to compare with the Civil Rights Movement. Now, with regards to specific items, I will start with gerrymandering. I don’t think that the concept of gerrymandering will ever go away because the political parties (both left and right) don’t want to give up this tool to centralize their power base. I do know that, in Europe, they have neutral commissions be responsible for the establishment of election districts within countries, such as the UK. In addition, there are some states that have that approach and I think, that this approach would help remove politics out of establishing election district boundaries. I am not sure that the United States, as a whole, would adopt this practice but it would definitely help be more objective in defining those boundaries. You can’t really pin the violence (physical against various minorities and associated buildings) on the Government as these activities are criminal offenses. It is the responsibility of the Government, both Federal and State/Local/Tribal (if applicable) to apprehend and prosecute the offenders. To that end, the justice system does a very good job in enforcement of the criminal code and ensuring that everyone is treated fairly. However, like all systems, there will be shortcomings and they need to be addressed when they appear. On the economic front, I do believe that the private sector is slowly (key word) realizing that the difference in pay between a woman and man (with same technical competence/qualifications) is wrong and are working on fixing that. A major problem is that the economy, in general, still assumes that a woman is more likely to leave the workforce and start a family. That assumption is outdated and needs to be corrected/revisited. The problem with metropolitan areas and rural areas is complex. The metropolitan areas, have a boatload of problems ranging from financial mismanagement, poor public services, rampant crime, no employment opportunities, inadequate education system and loss of tax base. The loss of tax base, depending on the location of the city is due to “white flight” and overly high taxation that drives businesses away. To solve the problem of the metropolitan areas, Government would have to partner with the private sector and basically reengineer public services and reform the municipal government. That process takes time and lots of effort and many people/corporations don’t want to mess with that as there is no profit to be made. That opinion is unfortunate but true. Rural areas, like metropolitan areas have their own unique set of problems. Rural areas tend to have problems with keeping population, employment opportunities. Many rural areas are dependent on external factors such as commodity prices (coal, wheat, corn, oil, etc.). Some rural areas have significant drug problems. Again, sometimes these problems will take a lot of time and effort and intervention from the Commonwealth/State and Federal Governments. Like cities, there may be a lack of interest by the State/Commonwealth and Federal Governments to help these communities. That is wrong too. As for suburbs, there tends to be a lack of community between the metropolitan area and the suburbs. The suburbs tend to view the metro area with hostility. There have been cases where metro areas, desperate for tax revenue, annexed large swaths of suburbs. Those actions don’t help build community at all. Sometimes the suburbs have more resources than metropolitan areas and that fosters jealousy and animosity between the communities. Your last point is true. However, the establishment of a law with proper enforcement is a good place to start. You can always build up from there. The key is for reform efforts to be done constructively not destructively.

dlandi

I absolutely hate seeing confederate flags flying in Virginia. I do find it deeply offensive. It is time to stop a weird sort of homage to a defeated Confederate South that absolutely does not deserve it, and take away the misguided hopes of "militia" lurking in the darkness with automatic assault rifles, waiting to RISE UP at take back their "country". Its not gonna happen.

We need to help them understand that the Confederacy is gone. That "colored" people are not slaves; but instead deserve equal treatment in all aspects of life. And, that domestic terrorism will be rooted out.

We can make a good start by taking down those ridiculous statues and putting them in a Museum of Racism where they belong.

LetSanityPrevail

You almost had it right until you said all domestic terrorism will be rooted out. When I see groups like Antifa being brought to justice for their destruction of property and lives maybe there will be hope, but it seems they are exempt from all punishment and criticism. When I see all those demanding equality for blacks stand up to the virulent anti-Semitism within the BLM movement I will believe there is hope for civility and equality. Seems only some groups are worthy of being protected.

BLT

You do realize that antifa is a confection of right wing minds. It doesn't actually exist.

Voltaire

BLT--No, actually it does exist. Antifa is not a distinct entity. However, Antifa is a useful umbrella term that denotes a broad spectrum of groups and individuals of far-left or anarchist tendencies. The term itself means simply anti-fascist.

springerdad

BLT - I guess you have not seen what is going on in Portland.

LetSanityPrevail

Nonesense, of course it exists. There is a collection of anarchists who label themselves anti-fascist who are anything but, and well funded. It is not imaginary but what else we would expect from an apologist for violence and chaos. I also see you refuse to respond to my comments about the rampant anti-semitism within the BLM support movement. Deflect is all you have.

amerigirl

springer, what about the forces used against the moms? They have no right to be there teargassing innocent protesters when they are nowhere near any federal places.

Voltaire

AG--those "lines of mom" were on the perimeter of the Federal Courthouse. That makes that Federal property and the Federal agents were, in accordance with the newest Executive Order's guidance, within their rights to make them move back from the building.

jbsets

It does but there are like 100 or so members and it is peaceful.

jbsets

Forgot that Antifa is short for Anti Fascist Movement. That's why I find Trump's newest group "Far Left Fascists." Now there's someone who could benefit from reading a book or too...and the Constitution

jbsets

V: In regards to the Mom's Wall, I just watched a video. It was peaceful and as you said, they were on the perimeter. That is not illegal as long as they don't go onto the actual property. I didn't see them approaching it at all. They are out again tonight. I watched a bit of that and still don't see them committing any violence. If you have an alternate video, please share

TomPaine

Look up straw-man argument. You are presenting a small part of the BLM movement as indicative of the entire movement. You should go to a protest and see that it's 99.9% peaceful people protesting a great injustice. Don't pick out individual criminal acts or tiny sub-groups. Look at the bigger picture.

LetSanityPrevail

I am looking at the bigger picture, the BLM and the Antifa collection of anarchists has enlisted the support of known anti-semites but that is ok in your fascist mind isn't it? You are a very poor student of history if you don't see how a good cause is now being manipulated.

amerigirl

Lets, wow just wow that is one heck of a conspiracy theory. Totally irrational and ludicrous.

jbsets

And mostly wearing masks

BLT

So, Voltaire, antifa exists in the same way that WingNut does? Just a label you apply haphazardly to make a point one way or another. No real basis in fact when you zoom in a bit. I get it. And, to those who are handwringing over "Anarchy in Portland," tell me honestly that you haven't watched Fox News or visited Breitbart or listened to Rush in the past month and I'll take what you say a bit more seriously. Of course, you won't be complaining about anarchy, antifa or any of these other "issues" if you haven't tuned in to that echo chamber lately. You'll more likely be alarmed at Trump's using Homeland Security as his private police force to try to gin up the law and order thing for his upcoming election campaign.

springerdad

BLT - People like you that ignore what is in front of you since it does not help your cause are the problem. I stand with you on so many issues but when you act like problems don't exist or they are made up right wing talking points when I can see with my own eyes what is going on is insulting.

What Trump is doing in Portland is horrible and should be stopped ASAP. I also call on the leaders in Portland and the State to take control of what has become an out of control situation. Same goes with Seattle and many other cities.

If I let my children act like these people and destroy my house I would be ashamed of myself.

Voltaire

BLT—Yes, it does. I am glad to see that you are making unfounded assumptions with ZERO supporting evidence. You don’t know so how do you know what news I watch/listen to? The answer is that you don’t but hey don’t let the absence of facts stop you from making unsubstantiated claims. As I have said on this site, I get my news from the Wall Street Journal, NPR/PBS, Bloomberg, and a multitude of international news channels, such as BBC. I don’t watch Fox News, haven’t visited Breitbart, or care to listen to Rush Limbaugh. As someone who cares about law and order, yes, I would complain about anarchy, antifa, and domestic terrorism. Most RATIONAL people would. I would also be alarmed, if, and that’s a big if, Trump is using the Department of Homeland Security (the correct title of the agency) as a private security force as that is not what the mission of the Department is for.

amerigirl

Try looking it up before you make these unfounded remarks.

Voltaire

AG--there is nothing in my remarks that is "unfounded" so therefore there is no need to "look it up". My response to BLT stands on its own merits.

amerigirl

Lets, how do you not see groups like the right wing boogaloo boys being brought to justice for their destruction of property and lives? Maybe because they were caught after the things they did were blamed on Antifa? Like the May 29 shooting of two Homeland Security officers, one fatally, in Oakland. The DEA and other federal agencies are now working together to stop groups like the Boogaloo Boys which they say hijack peaceful protests across the country. The DEA and FBI arrested Phillip Russell Archibald (Texas), who used his social media accounts to advocate vigilante “guerrilla warfare” against the national guardsmen patrolling Black Lives Matter protests.

Aaron Swenson, (Texas), was charged with making a terroristic threat against a peace officer, who “posted a Facebook Live video stating he was going to ambush and murder a Peace Officer.” There was Christian Ferguson,(Ohio) who planned to incite an uprising that would lead to the imposition of martial law and thus the next civil war.

How about the 3 (Nevada Boys) that were arrested for the firebombing plot? Or the other 3 there arrested and charged with conspiracy to instigate violence at the Las Vegas protests against the death of George Floyd. Or Bradley Bunn, (Colorado), is charged with possession of an explosive device.

So, 3 people suspected to be from from Antifa were arrested for looting. For all the implications by President Trump and Attorney General William Barr that “antifa” “terrorists” have hijacked protests against institutional police racism, none of the 22 criminal complaints representing the first wave of protest charges mention antifa in any way. Nobody was injured, nobody died by the left, can’t say that about the right.

Notalib

Yea, and those cops got pummeled this weekend in Chicago while guarding a Columbus statue by those right wing terrorist holding umbrellas. And those right wingers in Portland and Seattle, and the ones that burnt down the precinct in Minneapolis. Down with those right wingers!!

In reality AG, you really dont have a clue and if it wasnt so sad it would.be laughable.

springerdad

AG -

You and your blinders again. You amaze me with your one sided look at the world.. It is like you purposely ignore so many things to make your political points. You do understand you can be a Democrat like myself and call out all the bad things done by other Democrats.

Do you remember two police stations being burned down? 5 cop cars burned in Philly? Two lawyers arrested in NYC with Molotov cocktails?

How about this from yesterday.

12 officers injured, businesses and precincts damaged during protest in Seattle. Error. Something went wrong. SEATTLE — Twelve officers were injured, businesses and police precincts were damaged and two arrests were made during a protest that turned destructive in Seattle on Sunday.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/12-officers-injured-businesses-precincts-damaged-during-protest-seattle/BGPRGI37RJFNFECJBOHQEL6ZIE/#:~:text=Live%20Video%20%7C-,12%20officers%20injured%2C%20businesses%20and%20precincts%20damaged%20during%20protest%20in,Something%20went%20wrong.&text=SEATTLE%20%E2%80%94%20Twelve%20officers%20were%20injured,destructive%20in%20Seattle%20on%20Sunday.

amerigirl

Springer, where does it say they were Anifa? You must be blinded by wanting them to take the blame. I m not saying that they are doing the right thing when they become violent, I am against violence. You want to go on and on about attacks on the police but the police are attacking civilians also. In 1 day alone 7 people were totally or partially blinded by projectiles from the police, rubber bullets have blinded multiple individuals, while beatings have resulted in broken bones. Do you know how many peaceful protesters have been attacked by the police? I don’t care if they are doing something to the violent protesters, they get what they deserve. In Philadelphia, police cornered peaceful protesters on the side of a highway and tear-gassed them en masse. In Portland, Oregon, law enforcement used a sound cannon to send a piercing signal through a crowd of demonstrators. And in Washington, DC, National Guard officers flew military helicopters over protesters on the ground, an intimidation tactic aimed at getting them to leave, while also tear gassing and firing rubber bullets at peaceful protesters. At demonstration after demonstration, officers have met peaceful protesters and police violence more broadly, with disproportionate and brutal force, often for no reason but to “disperse” a crowd. During a peaceful protest in Toledo, Ohio, 29-year-old attorney Matthew Ahn said he saw police shooting wooden bullets directly at people, severely injuring at least two individuals. “One of the projectiles hit someone directly in the foot and broke multiple bones in his foot,” he said. “There were several puddles of blood left where he was. In Los Angeles, a state highway patrol car plow into a crowd of protesters and knock a man out in the process. There are hundred and hundreds of videos of cops abusing non-violent protesters, including the line of moms.

amerigirl

Nota, still haven’t learned the difference between protesters and rioters? If you think that it is only the left doing these things you are naive, and you really don’t have a clue. Your ignorance of who is doing what and why they are doing it is very sad, yes, even laughable.

Voltaire

AG—OK. You state “police attacking civilians”. I see that we have gone back to the principle of branding everyone who is in law enforcement as “out of control”. That characterization is wrong. However, based on the information I have seen, those “civilians” are not innocent at all. For example, in Toledo, according to information on Channel 13 Action News website, those “civilians” were actively engaged in civil unrest and were throwing projectiles at the police line. The “claim” that the police were using “wooden bullets” is simple hogwash as that type of item is NOT in the arsenal of a police force for use in riot control. The police were firing rubber bullets which ARE an acceptable weapon to control scenes of civil unrest. There is NO collaborative evidence to support the lawyer’s claim and furthermore one should question his motivations as he may be looking for business. You cite about “…how many peaceful protesters have been attacked by the police?” OK, how do you KNOW that all these people are peaceful? Do you have firsthand knowledge that ALL of these people are peaceful? No, you don’t but you are making that assumption. A good illustration is the situation you described in Philadelphia. Philadelphia’s Channel 6 had a helicopter overhead when the police supposedly “tear gassed them en masse”. A review of that film footage SHOWED that the “peaceful protesters” were blocking an Interstate highway, being disobedient, and failing to follow lawful commands. So, the police, using armored vehicles (not tanks totally different vehicles) fired tear gas and effectively “kettled” the protesters. The use of the kettle method of surrounding protesters in a corner and refuse to let them out is a UK riot control tactic that works. As for the use of tear gas, it was the proper thing to do to control the situation. As the Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Danielle Outlaw, stated “"Today's deployment of tear gas was a means to safely diffuse a volatile and dangerous situation, and restore order, when it became increasingly clear that other measures were ineffective in accomplishing that necessary objective. We will continue to evaluate the propriety of all applications of force, and make determinations as the circumstances of each unique situation dictate," The Bureau of Police in Portland used a LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) which emits sounds in the mid- to high-frequency range to target the vulnerable part of the human ear. It is similar to a siren and is designed to force people to flee. It is an effective non-lethal weapon in dispersing crowds. As for the CHP vehicle plowing into a crowd of protesters, those “protesters” weren’t peaceful either and they refused to move out of the way of the patrol car. The CHP didn’t have any choice in the matter as the “peaceful” crowd began to strike the vehicle and threaten the occupants. Yeah, I have yet to see one example of a group of “peaceful individuals”. As for Federal police in Portland, they are there to protect the Federal Building, in compliance with President Trump’s Executive Order to protect Federal monuments and buildings. According to the PBS Newshour, “…smaller groups of up to several hundred people have focused on federal property and local law enforcement buildings, at times setting fires to police precincts, smashing windows and clashing violently with local police.” Legal experts, such as Steve Vladeck, a constitutional law professor at the University of Texas, believe that the Federal police were within their proper jurisdiction. Professor Vladeck stated “…It seems clear that there were at least some federal crimes committed here.”

Voltaire

AG—After watching the video on Chicago’s Channel 6 news, you cannot say that those individuals who attacked City of Chicago Police in Grant Park were “peaceful protesters”. Even the Mayor of Chicago, at a press conference acknowledged that those people were non-peaceful. "That's not peaceful protest, that's anarchy, and we are going to put that down," said Mayor Lori Lightfoot. Furthermore, it creates extra problems for legitimate peaceful demonstrators because the police now have to view everyone, peaceful or not, as potential hostile and they have to be prepared/considerate of that. For instance, Superintendent David Brown instructed all officers in Chicago to wear riot gear at all times when protests occur and to approach every protest as if it was going to turn violent.

amerigirl

Vol, I never said that they were peaceful in Chicago. I have repeatedly said that there is a difference between peaceful protesters and rioters. I do NOT think all law enforcement is bad. I do think the extra forces that were brought into Portland should not be there. Both Senators, the Governor, and the Mayor want them out. They are using the excuse, under trumps orders, of protecting federal property but are attacking people that are nowhere near any federal property. Trump should not be sending unmarked forces from agencies that don't do this type of work into cities that have not requested help. They have no identifying markers, are throwing bags over peoples heads and putting them into unmarked vehicles. This is something from a banana republic not a democratic nation.

Voltaire

AG—OK. I agree with you that there are probably a lot more peaceful demonstrations than is being shown on television news reports. They don’t get the type of ratings that TV stations crave. I also agree with you that there are rogue elements within law enforcement, like other professions and that not everyone in law enforcement is bad. Overall, I would tend to agree that the job of restoring civil order should fall within the purview of the State and municipal law enforcement agencies. However, security of the Federal Courthouse does fall within the jurisdiction of the U.S. Marshal’s Service and they do have special tactical groups that are currently deployed. In addition, President Trump’s Executive Order authorizes the use of Federal law enforcement assets to protect Federal buildings and monuments. As shown on the videos on the Internet, those protesters were on the sidewalk around the Federal courts building and that is considered to be part of the Federal Property. The U.S. Marshal’s Service and Customs and Border Protection do have specialized units that are capable of riot control activities and they are the ones that are active in those videos. Typically, Federal law enforcement officers do not have the same requirements as National Guard or U.S. Army to identify who they are. The use of flash bangs is an acceptable, non-lethal way to make crowds disperse in a civil unrest situation. There is also nothing wrong with using unmarked vehicles. Actually, no, the proper use of riot control is different here than other countries. As I have stated before, in Europe, depending on the country, can use water cannons, military vehicles, and have full authority to pound protesters into the ground without accountability. The historical record shows that Napoleon Bonaparte, as a young officer, used a field artillery unit to fire volleys into a crowd of protesters and killed 300. The rioting stopped. Further, in banana republics, they deploy MILITARY assets such as tanks and can use live rounds to KILL protesters. That is a very big difference.

amerigirl

Volt, not everyone in law enforcement is bad? I would have to say that most aren’t bad. There were people there from ICE also. What is happening is still unconstitutional. trump is targeting what he called cities controlled by “liberal Democrats. As Kent Greenfield a Boston College law professor specializing in constitutional law said “The president is not the king,” “The president does not have the ability to require states to enforce their laws in a certain way, or to elbow aside their law enforcement abilities.” As Jimmy Gurule, a University of Notre Dame law professor said “There is no federal statute agents are enforcing by engaging with protesters,”. “My concern is whether their protection of federal property is a ruse to interfere with protesters’ free speech.” Under the U.S. Constitution, state governors generally have authority to maintain order within their states’ borders. The people deployed to attack Americans are not staying and protecting federal property. The Posse Comitatus Act, generally bars the federal military from participating in domestic law enforcement. As trump himself said he is deploying hundreds of agents to Chicago from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), the US Marshals Service, and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

The federal officers will work with local law enforcement to identify, arrest and prosecute violent criminals, the president said. But they have not been asked for and the local governments don’t want them and that has nothing to do with federal property.

Voltaire

AG—OK. First, not everyone who works for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) component of the Department of Homeland Security is bad either. Next, no, it is not unconstitutional for what the Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Marshal’s Service is doing. Federal authorities can enforce federal laws on federal property, like the courthouse in downtown Portland. Maybe Professor Gurule needs to research U.S. Supreme Court cases as the U.S. Supreme Court stated in case precedent that the Freedom of Speech can be suspended, under a State of Emergency, if (1) the protesters become violent or (2) exhibit an appearance of them turning violent. The situation in Portland supports the first condition. As seen in several videos on the Internet, these “peaceful demonstrators” are on Federal property as the sidewalk outside the Federal courthouse IS Federal property. So, the Federal agents are within their lawful duty to clear them from Federal property. You are right that, if these “demonstrators” are off Federal property then the Federal authorities on scene shouldn’t be engaging them. However, it does NOT help the situation to have these “peaceful” protestors taunting law enforcement and launching projectiles at them as their response to the situation is normal as they are not RoboCop. Also, the Posse3 Comitatus Act does NOT apply to Federal law enforcement. The Act specifically applies to the U.S. MILITARY (U.S. Army active duty units specifically) engaging in law enforcement activities. This is not the situation at all.

amerigirl

Volt, did I say everyone who works for ICE is bad? But they do have a reputation and I’m pretty sure you are aware of it. I know who they are part of lease stop acting like you have to explain all these things to people because they don’t know as much as you do. Yes, it is unconstitutional and that is why AG’s are suing. You can’t kidnap people off the street, Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum is now suing federal officials, alleging that agents who were dispatched to Portland have rounded up people “without warning or explanation, without a warrant, and without providing any way to determine who is directing this action,”. A Portland man was seized, blindfolded, transported, imprisoned and finally released without once being told who had abducted him and why. You have then violated the people’s rights guaranteed under the constitution of free speech, petition and assembly. You obviously don’t understand the difference between “peaceful” protectors and rioters either.

Voltaire

AG—No, you did not directly state that. Your original comment was as follows: “…not everyone in law enforcement is bad? I would have to say that most aren’t bad. There were people there from ICE also.” There is a implication that ICE personnel were an exception to the original statement of “not everyone in law enforcement is bad”. You may know know where ICE falls within the Department of Homeland Security, can you say the same thing for anyone else who may be reading this website? No, you cannot so I write so that everyone can understand that. That is the proper way to write. On that topic, I will communicate any bloody way that I want. Who are you to tell me what to do? That is hypocritical, at a minimum, as you don’t like it when others call out you for trying to do the practice that I am accused of. Yes, I do understand the difference between “peaceful” protestors and rioters. As to the question of constitutionality, that is debatable to say the least. I will let the judiciary determine that question. However, based on what videos I have witnessed, to say that these people are “peaceful” is debatable. If, as you cite, that incident did occur, then the parties responsible will be dealt with through administrative and/or other sanctions.

amerigirl

Volt you bet there was an implication that ICE has a lot of baddies, ones fired for being white nationalist. A senior employee at a for-profit immigrant detention center in Nevada was active on the neo-N@zi site Iron March and aspired to establish a white nationalist chapter in his area. They have estimated that there are many white nationalist in ICE and the border patrol.

I am not responsible for other people’s knowledge or lack of. The are a computer they can google it or ask. I am not writing a book or even an op-ed it is a comment section and I am commenting. I am not saying that you can’t comment anyway you want but when you treat me as an ignorant child that needs everything explained to her than it is very irritating, I hope you can understand that. It is the ones you direct to me as if I am too stupid to know these things. You won’t see too many of the peaceful protesters because they don’t make the news, but you will hear them from mayors and other leaders when they are giving news conferences.

amerigirl

Lets, another conspiracy theory you have fallen for. It is not a unified organization, but rather a loose ideological label for a subset of left-wing radicals who believe in using street-level force to prevent the rise of what they see as fascist movements. Internal FBI assessments and protest-related court documents tell a consistent story: Antifa members are not responsible for the unrest in the protests. Antifa does a lot more than merely brawl with far-right activists. Members of antifa groups do more conventional activism, flyer campaigns, and community organizing, on behalf of anti-racist and anti-white nationalist causes. This type of work makes up the “vast majority” of antifa activity. They are not a nationalized organization they have specific local organizations. There’s no antifa PR agency so they can’t really defend what they do or what they have been accused of doing. It is not like MS-13 like trump said because it is not organized. The divider in chief will say anything to rile up his base. If you think they are well funded please tell me who is funding them and how they get funding to them.

Can we get back to the statue now???

Walkaway

Please, out of everything you have said I haven't put much together except that you are only on here to cause trouble. Kind of like a rioter without a brick. At this point you are just doing and saying the same thing over and over.

amerigirl

Walkaway, how's that? How is explaining something causing trouble? Please do not try to tell me how I should explain things when I am replying to others. They were replies that were answers to comments they made. If you don’t want to read them don’t. But don’t give me a hard time for my responses to others.

Notalib

OMG, cant go back to the statue after the ignorance you spout off

jbsets

Guys, wooden bullets do cause damage as do rubber bullets. Six people got a bullet in the eye and are now blinded. One is a journalist covering the event and another was just walking down the street trying to get from point A to point B and not even involved. I don't know about the other 4. In any case, no one deserves to get shot with a wood or rubber bullet. There are other options.

Not crazy what happened to the Navy vet. He asked them (what is the group called in Portland?) if they felt that they were betraying the oaths they took when they joined the US military. He had no weapon. He didn't threaten anyone. He just stood there and they still beat him with a billy club and sprayed him in the face with pepper spray. They broke his hand and he now needs surgery. He fought for our country in Desert Storm and the military hurts him?

The first amendment gives us the right to peacefully protest. Not every protest has been peaceful. Yup, there's been looting, destruction of property, attacks on the police, but there has also been excessive force against peaceful protesters.

Trump sending "officers" to cities in states with Democratic governors and cities with Democratic mayors is wrong. He's not doing it because they need it, but because he wants to do everything he can to bring down anyone who doesn't agree with him. It would be more believable if he was sending "troops" to any city with issues. It's not just in Democratic cities and states.

This whole thing is just so sad and has nothing to do with Confederate statues

Voltaire

Jbsets—I agree that wooden bullets, if they exist, would cause damage as do rubber bullets. However, there is no such tool in law enforcement’s riot control toolbox such as “wooden bullets”. They were probably rubber bullets. Under a state of emergency, as was the case in Portland, law enforcement has the authority to use lawful riot control techniques to disperse crowds if they are unlawfully assembled. The failure to follow a lawful command from the incident commander by a civilian (even a member of the press) is grounds for law enforcement to arrest the individual and make the individual disperse through appropriate methods. Rubber bullets are used to make people disperse. They are a proper riot control tool and they should be used. It is important to remember that this is a civil unrest. According to reports, within this crowd of “protesters, were members of “violent anarchists” who had launched objects at Federal officers, including fireworks, bags of paint, and tried to barricade officers inside a Federal building. A review of the film footage confirms the reports as you can hear fireworks being discharged. It was also reported that a “protester” was arrested after assaulting a Federal officer with a hammer. Actually, in a civil unrest situation, the law enforcement response here was rather restrained. I think that it is important to remind people that in other parts of the world, such as Europe, riot police, such as France’s CRG, have carte blanche authority to clear rioters out of the streets and can use military equipment and water cannons and as much physical force as required to get people to clear out.

I have watched the footage concerning the Navy vet. First, the Navy vet was within the perimeter of the Federal Courthouse. The Federal officer (either a member of Customs and Border Protection or U.S. Marshal) ordered him to move back from the perimeter of the Federal building and he refused to comply with that direction. So, the individual was failing to follow lawful command, which is a violation of the law and law enforcement is entitled to compel the individual to comply. That is simply what happened here. The use of pepper spray was also authorized to force the individual to move back. It is important that the Federal officer is not the U.S. Military. The Posse Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C.§ 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) prohibits the use of the active duty U.S. Military to serve as domestic law enforcement. The only way that they are authorized for law enforcement is through activation under the authority of the Insurrection Act. The Act does not prevent the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard under state authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within its home state or in an adjacent state if invited by that state's governor.

I agree that the First Amendment does allow for people to PEACEFULLY protest. However, it is worth noting that, under a State of Emergency, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that that right may be suspended if (1) the crowd of peaceful demonstrators becomes violent or (2) there is the appearance that the crowd of peaceful protesters is becoming violent. At that point, the Court found that it is reasonable for law enforcement to force the crowd to disperse. I would further argue that the amount of force that law enforcement is using to disperse the crowd is proportional to the amount of violence that the crowd is showing towards the police. Courts have also found that to be reasonable.

No, President Trump is not sending in troops as that would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. He has not issued a directive indicating that he has activated the U.S. Military through the Insurrection Act. He is sending in U.S. Marshals Service and officers from Customs and Border Protection to protect Federal buildings which would be allowed under the newest Executive Order that allows for the protection of Federal Buildings and Monuments. Based upon the level of violence that is captured on videotape, these Federal officers may be required.

jbsets

Don't forget the far right QAnon

Voltaire

Dlandi—OK. Here is a news flash. Virginia was part of the Confederate States of America (CSA). Furthermore, Richmond, the capital of Virginia, was also the capital of the CSA. Those two statements are historical FACTs. There are people in the Commonwealth of Virginia who have ancestors who died fighting for their home state and the CSA. It is logical then that they would fly a Confederate flag to respect their ancestors. It is extremely offensive to belittle them when they are not bothering you. No, this country is not going to re-litigate the Civil War. The historical record shows that the Civil War ended 155 years ago. This is the United States of America and if they want to remember their family members, which are their RIGHT without any intervention from anyone. People understand that the CSA is gone. I would also wager that people also understand that African Americans are not slaves anymore. Wow, do we like to make blanket assumptions without ANY facts to support that claim. Furthermore, like making the assumption that “domestic terrorism” is all Confederate driven? That is clearly WRONG. There are more than enough “domestic terrorism” organizations that are on the LEFT wing side of the political spectrum so it is wrong to assume that “domestic terrorism” automatically is connected with either the RIGHT wing or the Confederacy. As for the statues, they should go to a PROPER home which would be either a Museum of American History or a Civil War Battlefield where they can be properly appreciated. Do you really think that anyone in their right mind is going to open a “Museum of Racism?” Let’s get real.

Well Water Person

Hey carpetbagger!

Ever thought of moving out!?

amerigirl

carpetbagger???? what are you like 200 years old??? why would you ask someone to move out, they my have been here longer than you have?

VeAyLifer

Your statement is full of unfounded statements. I have lived in the south all my life and NEVER have I heard of "milita" willing to rise up and take back their country. My father fought in World War II for the UNITED STATES, I fought in Vietnam for the UNITED STATES, and my sons fought in Iraq and Afghanistan for the UNITED STATES. We have 5 purple hearts among us, a Silver Star, and a Navy Cross. Where do you get off making anti-patriotic statements about people you can't hold a candle to. By the way we all also graduated from West Point where they teach the strategies of Southern Generals as a part of tactics. j;

amerigirl

Lifer, I think you were addressing me so here is a site that will explain what the Boogloo Boys "milita" is. It is not a south thing it is country wide and extremely violent. You have a wonderful family that is and was dedicated to the country, so glad for their service. The Boys are not government sanctioned, they are more like the Proud Boys on steroids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement

Voltaire

VeAyLifer--I wanted to take a moment and to say THANK YOU for you and your family's service to this nation. I appreciate you and your family's dedication. As a student of military history, I am also glad to hear that West Point does cover the military tactics of the Southern Generals as part of the study of the Civil War as there were some interesting concepts utilized in that war.

jbsets

Thank you for your service.

Makes sense that they do especially since several of them were graduates of West Point. I'm not military, but there is something to be learned from both sides...even the bad ones. There were some really bad ones on both sides before, during, and after the Civil War. If you don't study the bad too, how do you avoid those mistakes in the future. Seems like common sense.

darth

Good riddance.

Notalib

Wow, now all of the rioter and looters will go home. BLM will no longer protest and all of the other racial issues will go away.

darth

Actually, now that we've gotten rid of one more sign of overt racism, which is the easy part, we can focus more energy on the rest of the systemic injustices built into our society. Maybe people can start having real discussions instead of spewing vitriol at each other.

springerdad

Darth - Sorry I am all into Trader Joe's right now. All the other important things will have to wait : )

Notalib

You mean how some men from the nation of India look down on African American women? Or how some Asians of both sexes think they are smarter than everyone? That kind of systematic behavior? Or are you only talking about people a of a caucasian and skin color and the ones with a very dark skin color? Racism is no only white/black, black/white thing, it involves every race. There are racist in every ethnic persuasion. It is not exclusive.

amerigirl

????????????????

jbsets

Goes beyond just race. What about the different religions? The LGBTQ+ community? We don't treat women of any race or religion with equality either. I just hope that BLM will go beyond race to include other groups who are often persecuted too.

Misty Mountain

And we can all go back to the way it used to be - whites rule and everybody else know their place.

amerigirl

What part of Loudoun do you live in that has rioters and looters? Who cares if they protest, that is a constitutional right, unless you think like trump and send forces to attack citizens and moms. But you are right on 1 thing, Someday other racial issues will go away

Notalib

No one cares if they protest Clueless one. But we do when rioting, looting and destruction of.property occurs and that is not a constitutional right.

Voltaire

Notalib--You are correct. Rioting, looting, and destruction of property are criminal offenses and should be handled by the appropriate authorities.

Walkaway

Can you share data on Trump sending "forces" to "attack" citizens and moms.

I need to see this order.

Can you define each please. Thank you

amerigirl

Trump deployed troops to Portland which he can not legally do unless he is protecting federal property. The forces which are not trained for use in protest. except a brief training before being deployed The are actually attacking the protesters and escalating the violence in the city. He is now threatening to do this in other democratic cities. The mayor wants them out of the city because the violence is getting much worse with them there. Even though they are only supposed to be protecting federal property they have expanded into other locations in the city. Trump seems to think it makes him look strong. On July 11, a federal agent shot a peaceful protester in the head with a crowd-control munition, sending the man to the hospital with a fractured skull. On July 15, videos captured men in fatigues jumping out of unmarked vans and grabbing people off of the street without explanation. And federal agents from Customs and Border Protection and the U.S. Marshals Service have since ramped up aggressive tactics against demonstrators in downtown. Along with the mayor, Portland.Senators Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley,are demanding they leave and Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum is challenging the legality of what Trump is doing. Trump is now attacking the American people and not letting them practice their constitutional right to protest. Most of this you can get in any paper or nightly news or google it. this site shows how the moms were attacked.

.https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/feds-gas-moms-forming-human-133407035.html and shows videos.

jbsets

From a Trump speech he made yesterday

Trump made the pronouncement as he defended his administration’s use of force in Portland, Ore., where agents have clashed nightly with protesters and made arrests from unmarked cars. Calling the unrest there “worse than Afghanistan,” Trump’s rhetoric escalated tensions with Democratic mayors and governors who have criticized the presence of federal agents on U.S. streets, telling reporters at the White House that he would send forces into jurisdictions with or without the cooperation of their elected leaders.

“We’re looking at Chicago, too. We’re looking at New York,” he said. “All run by very liberal Democrats. All run, really, by the radical left.”

“This is worse than anything anyone’s ever seen,” Trump continued. “And you know what? If Biden got in, that would be true for the country. The whole country would go to h*ll.”

Voltaire

AG--You are correct, that, provided that the protesters are demonstrating PEACEFULLY, then that is their constitutional right. If there is rioting/violence, then that right ends. The U.S. Supreme Court has said, in case precedent that if protesters start acting violently or have the appearance of becoming violent, then that constitutional right is voided and law enforcement has the right to cease the violence; arrest the offenders; and disperse the crowd.

amerigirl

Those moms weren't violent; https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/feds-gas-moms-forming-human-133407035.html

Voltaire

AG--I just watched multiple versions of the "incident" and the crowd was advancing on the police line and the response by the Federal agents of firing a flash bang was proper. They shouldn't have tried to advance onto the Federal property. Those agents were within their legal authority to fire that item.

jbsets

I saw the videos of the people being snatched off the street and they weren't being violent or destroying anything. I saw the video of the Navy vet being attacked by the troops. He wasn't doing anything but standing there. You can hear him ask the question when they just hauled off and hit him repeatedly with a billy club. You need to defend against violence but you don't get to go after people who protesting legally and peacefully and you can't use the excuse that they might. That's something that they do in police states run by dictators. I don't want the US society to turn into that.

Voltaire

Jbsets— I have watched the footage concerning the Navy vet. First, the Navy vet was within the perimeter of the Federal Courthouse. The Federal officer (either a member of Customs and Border Protection or U.S. Marshal) ordered him to move back from the perimeter of the Federal building and he refused to comply with that direction. So, the individual was failing to follow lawful command, which is a violation of the law and law enforcement is entitled to compel the individual to comply. That is simply what happened here. The use of pepper spray was also authorized to force the individual to move back. As I have previously addressed elsewhere on this site, the Federal officers are not active-duty U.S. Military (Army) troops as that would constitute a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. President Trump signed an Executive Order that allows for Federal officers to protect Federal buildings and monuments. From the video footage, that is what they were doing. There were multiple indications that people were launching fireworks at the officers. There were reports, within this crowd of “protesters, were members of “violent anarchists” who had launched objects at Federal officers, including fireworks, bags of paint, and tried to barricade officers inside a Federal building. A review of the film footage confirms the reports as you can hear fireworks being discharged. It was also reported that a “protester” was arrested after assaulting a Federal officer with a hammer. Overall, I thought that the law enforcement response here was rather restrained. There are many different approaches that the world’s developed and developing countries take to handle civil unrest. For example, in other parts of the world, such as Europe, riot police, such as France’s CRG, have carte blanche authority to clear rioters out of the streets and can use military equipment and water cannons and as much physical force as required to get people to clear out. Some countries actually deploy military equipment and troops and authorize deadly fire to clear protesters. Napoleon Bonaparte, as a young officer, was tasked with clearing out a riot. He took a unit of field artillery and ordered it to deploy on the streets of Paris. On his command, it fired into the crowd of protesters killing about 300 protesters. The riot quickly stopped.

springerdad

Thank god. Will the SJW's at the LTM now start posting articles about Covid-19 and how it is effecting the local businesses and senior living facilities?

darth

Yes. Everyone please wear a mask. The faster we reduce case counts, the faster the economy recovers and the sooner we can go about without masks.

springerdad

Darth - Masks and social distancing!

jbsets

AMEN! I keep wondering why ignoring the pandemic to reopen the country to get the economy is going to work. The CDC released a report today:

The C.D.C. says the number of people infected ‘far exceeds the number of reported cases’ in parts of the U.S. The number of people infected with the coronavirus in different parts of the United States has been anywhere from two to 13 times higher than the reported rates for those regions, according to data released Tuesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The findings suggest that large numbers of people who did not have symptoms or did not seek medical care may have kept the virus circulating in their communities. The study is the largest of its kind to date, although some early data was released last month. “These data continue to show that the number of people who have been infected with the virus that causes Covid-19 far exceeds the number of reported cases,” Dr. Fiona Havers, the C.D.C. researcher who led the study, said in an email. “Many of these people likely had no symptoms or mild illness and may have had no idea that they were infected.”

The researchers analyzed samples from people who had routine clinical tests, or were inpatients at hospitals, in 10 cities and states for evidence of prior virus infection. The team released early data for six of the sites in June, and for all 10 locations Tuesday in the journal JAMA Internal Medicine. They also released data from later times for eight sites to the C.D.C.’s website on Tuesday.

About 40 percent of infected people do not develop symptoms, but they may still pass the virus on to others. The United States now tests roughly 700,000 people a day. The new results highlight the need for much more testing to detect infection levels and contain the viral spread in parts of the country.

For example, in Missouri, the prevalence of infections as of May 30 was 2.8 percent or 171,000, 13 times the reported rate of 12,956 cases, suggesting that the state missed most people with the virus who might have contributed to its outsized outbreak.

In some regions, the gap between estimated infections and reported cases decreased as testing capacity and reporting improved. New York City, for example, showed a 12-fold difference between actual infections and reported cases in early April, but by early May the difference was down to tenfold.

The study indicates that even the hardest-hit area in the study — New York City, where nearly one in four people has been exposed to the virus — is nowhere near achieving herd immunity, the level of exposure at which the spread of the virus would start to dwindle on its own. To reach that level, experts believe at least 60 percent of people in a particular place would have had to be exposed to the virus.

So what happens when people are too sick to work or buy things? Dead people don't buy anything. How does that help anything?

Wearing masks and social distancing has proven positive results. Why wouldn't we do it? How can a hoax killed more than 142,000 people since late January? Has this society always been so selfish? Tell them to wear a mask to keep others safe. That's just dumb. Tell them to wear masks to keep themselves safe and I bet people would wear them. Then there are the people who just don't understand the science and buy into false narrative's like you can't get it from family members. I'm not sick so I can't make anyone else sick. God will protect me. Masks will kill you. (Some dumb woman told a 20somehing who tried to give her a mask that wearing a mask is unhealthy. "Breathing in your own carbon monoxide will kill you." She is right if that carbon monoxide is generated when you sit in your car in your garage with the doors closed and your car running. Then there are the "you can't tell me what to do" selfish people who want to do what they want when they want and "you can't stop me." I loved the woman in FL who told everyone at a town council meeting that it was her right to go without a mask like it was okay to not wear underwear so "things can air out." That was not a visual I needed in my head.

Well Water Person

Conservatives!

Take heart!

There will be a reckoning!

LoudounClear

You missed it...Appomattox.

Notalib

Sounds like a threat

Well Water Person

What’s up snowflake?

What are you afraid?

amerigirl

Reckoning? Do you think the South will rise again? What country are you loyal to?

Well Water Person

Virginia!!

What do you think?

Voltaire

Well Water Person--OK, the Commonwealth of Virginia is a state, not a country. I am thinking you are referring to the United States of America which the Commonwealth of Virginia is part of.

amerigirl

That's a state not a country. CSA or USA?

Voltaire

AG--The CSA has ceased to officially exist since 1865. It is obviously the USA.

amerigirl

Volt you know that and I know that but does well water know that?

jbsets

It is. Their just rising up against themselves by not wearing masks.

Walkaway

What does that mean? Can you assist me?

amerigirl

Pretty sure it is just some vengeful rant.

sol9001

You are probably a racist

LoudounPulse

Now begins the debate, what will be placed on that spot? My vote is a statue of Lady Justice.

RandomName2019

That would be appropriate.

Notalib

How about a statue of Confederate soldier and a Union soldier shaken hands in a sign of reconciliation

Voltaire

Notalib--I think that a statue like that would be more appropriate in Appomattox County, not Loudoun County.

jbsets

Really? Why is that?

Voltaire

Jbsets--Appomattox Courthouse is the site where Lee surrendered to Grant at the end of the Civil War. Appomattox Courthouse is in Appomattox County. A statue, as being described would be more historical fitting at the site of the formal surrender and end of the Civil War.

amerigirl

How abut a tree or bench? Why a statue at all? If it had to be a statue do Lady Justice, it is a courthouse.

springerdad

AG - Agreed!

jbsets

Makes sense to me and then put up a monument to the Leesburg family for which the city is named. Some of them were Revolutionary War heros as well as founding the town.

Well Water Person

I would support that idea.

jbsets

Could do what happened in York Maine. They ordered a Yankee statue with the names of all the soldiers from York who fought in the Civil War. Statue came and when they went to install it, they realized it was actually a Confederate soldier. Couldn't return it so they put it anyway. It has been standing in the town square for more than 100 years. It's beloved by the townspeople except for this one guy who launched a campaign to remove it. Why you ask? Not because it's a Confederate monument. Nope he thinks that the town needs more sidewalks.

riverman

How about just plain grass. Can anyone complain about that?

Kenzop

Yes, I have allergies and grass makes me miserable.[beam]

amerigirl

Maybe the other grass? Kidding.

jbsets

Astro turf? Just not the kind that was making kids in DC and MD sick

Voltaire

LP--How about nothing? Why does the County of Loudoun have to spend more tax dollars erecting something that somebody may find offense at? That would be a waste of resources.

jbsets

The tax dollar thing is a good point

amerigirl

Good idea but how about a fountain,or bench?

Voltaire

AG--I can go with either a fountain or a bench.

Well Water Person

How about Nat Turner and the rest of his murdering thugs?

LoudounPulse

If you have to do it in the middle of the night, that's saying something.

amerigirl

That's when most statues are removed to avoid protesters. Why would they want to do it in the middle of 2 sides protesting?

Notalib

If it's a fountain or a bench they will.still find a reason to pritest

amerigirl

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh sure, both ides?????

Notalib

Protest

Voltaire

LP--Makes sense to me. They were probably worried about the possibility of vandalism/destruction.

doverboy

Okay, that battle is over, what's next?

LetSanityPrevail

Expect a number of street renamings to occur next such as Lee-Jackson Highway, John Mosby highway, etc. I believe there is a petition by the faculty to rename Washington and Lee University. /sarcasm on---I really feel bad for all the Koreans with the last name of Lee---they will need to change their names too--sarcasm off/.

springerdad

I suggest we head over to Trader Joe's and make sure they throw out all the food with ethnic-sounding variations.

The grocer said it had decided years ago to adopt the Trader Joe’s banner on its entire product lineup, instead of using such ethnic-sounding variations as Trader Jose’s on Mexican food products and Trader Ming’s on Chinese fare.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/20/trader-joes-removing-racist-packaging-after-online-petition/?hpid=hp_no-name_hp-in-the-news%3Apage%2Fin-the-news

Virginia SGP

Well, don't expect the schools to put an effective teacher in front of every student, including the more than 50% who are minority. That would be worthwhile and this group of radical Leftists has no intention of doing anything to actually help people or minorities, only stage political stunts. It's very telling when thes hardcore Dems are asking for raises for the 80% white teachers including the ones in the bottom 20% of Virginia effectiveness ratings. They are absolutely pathetic.

TomPaine

Off the rails as usual. We should seek to remove all glorification of racism and treason wherever it is soup to nuts. There is no such thing as Confederate "Heritage". I have socks with more age than the Confederacy lasted. And asking for raises for teachers is not racist. You paint it as Dems only wanting white teachers to get a raise. Crawl back in your hate hole.

Voltaire

TomPaine--Wow. Andrew Johnson on December 25, 1868 officially pardoned the Confederates so technically you cannot call them "traitors" as the pardon covered the offense of treason. Next, you are wrong in that there is a thing called Confederate "Heritage". Those families that have lost ancestors who fought for the Confederacy have history connected to that time period and are entitled to recognize it. It is wrong to belittle those families' histories/heritage. The length of the Confederate States of America is not really germane to this conversation.

jbsets

I agree wit TomP. Don't erase the history. We learn from it so it doesn't happen again, but don't glorify or celebrate the Confederacy or what it represented. Sorry about the whole ancestor thing but they didn't have to fight for the Confederacy. There were plenty of people who broke with the south and fought with the Union. TN didn't even secede. What about all the slaves who died at the hands of their "masters?" They don't seem to count in your logic. Only white ancestors...technically white male ancestors...count? You might not mean it the way it sounds, but you are definitely sounding racist or at least not empathetic to the slaves and what happened to them.

Voltaire

Jbsets—I don’t believe that anyone is glorifying the Confederate States of America (CSA). The historical record does show that yes, men, in Confederate States were REQUIRED to serve in the Confederate military. In April 1862, the CSA passed the Conscription Act, the first conscription law used by either side (Confederate or Union) which made all able bodied white men between the ages of 18 and 35 liable for a three-year term of service in the Confederate Army. It also extended the terms of enlistment for all one-year soldiers to three years. The State of Tennessee did secede from the Union. In the June 8, 1861 referendum, East Tennessee held firm against separation, while West Tennessee returned an equally heavy majority in favor. The deciding vote came in Middle Tennessee, which went from 51 percent against secession in February to 88 percent in favor in June. Having ratified by popular vote its connection with the fledgling Confederacy, Tennessee became the last state to declare formally its withdrawal from the Union. My initial comment concerning Confederate ancestors was in response to the Tom Paine’s statement that “…there is no such thing as Confederate “Heritage”. I don’t believe that ancestors of slaves would be celebrating the CSA. Furthermore, I did not say that those families did not celebrate their ancestors. They are entitled just like the ancestors of Confederate soldiers to celebrate their family members and not have people belittle them too. As to the charge of racism, that is simply unfounded conjecture. I don’t tend to show much empathy, comes from my aristocratic family lineage.

DavisB

nothing to do with the statue - stay focused and post your drivel on the correct article -

Misty Mountain

And your’s/republicans’ plan? Pathetically doing nothing, but ensuring easy access to guns under the banner 2A.

amerigirl

[offtopic][offtopic][offtopic] and irrelevant as usual, [offtopic][offtopic][offtopic]

springerdad

AG - I suggest you take your own advice.

amerigirl Jul 17, 2020 3:07pm

Not, when doing your SMH did you hear rattling? I hope there is enough in there that you can understand that LTM puts out articles and they let you comment on the articles. It is not your job to think that you are God and can pass judgement on other peoples comments. Try, very hard if you have to, and focus on commenting on the articles not the people.

amerigirl

How is saying that the person is not commenting on the article a comment about the person? I did not comment on him as a person.I took my own advice, maybe you should also instead of commenting on me.

springerdad

AG - Do you even read what you post? These are your words. It is not your job to think that you are God and can pass judgement on other peoples comments.

So when you call his comments off topic and irrelevant you are passing judgement.

darth

Next up: Systemic racism, income inequality, environmental injustice, the country's tilt toward autocracy, police overreach, take your pick!

pvilleresident

Wow, just wow. The Loudoun Lefties strike again. The UDC had until September 7 to remove it, but the county wasted taxpayer money and resources to remove it themselves. I could see if the UDC didn't comply and remove it in the time frame, but come on. If you don't see what is going on you all need to wake up. Another power grab by Randall and her cronies, if you don't wake up there will be many more. Recall her and voter her out.

CindyLou

pvilleresident…..It's not the Loudoun lefties that cause this. It's that Crazy man sitting in the white house that have caused horrible racial tensions to this country. He supports and promotes all the white supremacy groups. He needs their votes! It's time that every one of these statues goes. Let's hope Trump doesn't put one up of himself in it's place. I guess you think the "virus" is a leftie too right?

Misty Mountain

Absolutely right. Why anybody supports concrete of a traitor who fought against the United States is beyond comprehension of normal people. Yet, some far right nut jobs think those who support democracy are “snowflakes.”

amerigirl

Ken, do you want people to do your homework for you? The retweet of the golf cart guy saying White power is probably the most recent. Good people on both sides. His ads with N@zi symbols, refusal to condemn endorsements from a prominent white supremacist and former KKK leader when running, say he didn't want the support of white supremacists — four times. He has cut resources to fight white supremacy and domestic terrorism. Stephen Miller, that doesn’t even need explaining. His own words about Latinos and Asians.

Walkaway

See above. I wrote that comment so you could hear how you sound from a better perspective.

Voltaire

Misty Mountain--OK. Andrew Johnson on December 25, 1868 officially pardoned the Confederates of the crime of treason. That means that they cannot be considered "traitors" as the pardon absolves them of that offense. Further, making the unsupported claim that a person "...supports concrete of a traitor who fought against the United States is beyond comprehension of normal people." is flawed. How do you know what normal people comprehend? What is the standard definition of normal? Are those families who live in this county and have lost loved ones fighting for the Confederate States of America and want to honor them by supporting the statue not normal? No, you can't make any of those arguments/premises stick and therefore that thought is subjective.

Kenzop

Where is your proof that the President supports and promotes white supremacy groups? Actual documented proof, not what you heard from the MSM.

Walkaway

That's a typical left wing CNN ideology. Probably a Don Lemon fan.

Notalib

Go back into your liberal hole and look in the mirror and practice more lies.

jbsets

LOL he's having it commissioned as we speak. He'll clone them for each state and nasty Democrat city and state. Oh and he'll clone himself too.

sterling20164

Where in the article does it say that it wasn’t removed by UDC last night?

jbsets

Wondered that myself

amerigirl

That's the problem with righty tighty's like you. Place blame before you are even aware of the circumstances. I would love to see you rove that big lie you just spewed. The Daughters of the Confederacy removed the statue after they coordinated with the county government. But you can keep on making all the conspiracy theories and blaming the left for your lies but expect to get called out.

jbsets

So many people hate Phyllis Randall. She's black right?

Voltaire

Jbsets--your guess is correct.

jbsets

People hate her because she is black. Wow. That's sad

Waterfordresident

Typical crying liberals. All boo hoo cries about things hundred of years ago, yet slavery exist today and they say nothing about it. See everyone...they really care . Funny how all the violence, hate speech, burning businesses, abuse, hatred, bigotry (liberals need to learn the meaning of this word), racism and fascism are all coming from the liberals. Those are facts. So look in the mirror liberals as you are the problem and you will secure President Trump a win this November. All these so-called polls said the same in 2016. The silent majority will speak this November.

BLT

the silent majority will "squeak" in November....as their traitor trash candidate is shown the door. The silent majority of 141,000 dead to COVID have gotten voters fed up and ready to do something about it.

amerigirl

Who is crying? I bet it's those fascist that think the civil war should be celebrated. Bunch of losers. It isn't liberals doing all he violence, hate speech, burning businesses, abuse, hatred, bigotry (they are called rioters). I bet you blame all ills on liberals. Then again you are one of the liar in chief's sheep. Get woke and look at the real person you are admiring, he is clueless and there is a good reason they ran a cognitive test on him. Too bad he thought it was hard.

springerdad

AG - Just so you know the people doing the rioting and looting in Portland and Seattle are not Democrats friends. The longer you tolerate their bad behavior the harder it will be to stop them.

If you think they will stop when Biden asks them pretty please it won't work.

amerigirl

Tolerate? Since trumpster sent in forces it has escalated. Which is why the mayor wants the forces out. Trump needs to stop attacking the American people.

springerdad

PORTLAND, Ore. — Authorities say downtown businesses in Portland, Oregon, have sustained about $23 million in damages and lost customers because of violent nightly protests that have wracked the city.

At a police briefing Wednesday, Portland Police Bureau's Deputy Chief Chris Davis said the intensity of the violence by an “agitator corps” and the length of the protests are unprecedented in Oregon’s largest city.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/downtown-businesses-have-lost-23-million-due-to-ongoing-portland-protests/283-7615a089-f72f-4d9e-9b7e-af98dbbe0afe

Voltaire

AG--It is a blanket characterization to say that everyone who celebrates the Civil War are fascists/losers. So, are you telling me that all those who re-enact Civil War battles are fascists/losers? No, you can't prove that. There are people who find the Civil War interesting and that is their hobby. It is wrong to try to associate a political angle on that.

amerigirl

disagree, those who remember it may not be but those who celebrate it are. They can find it interesting that is not celebrating it.

Voltaire

AG--OK, then how do you define the difference?

jbsets

V: Andrew Johnson...until recently was considered the worst president in American history, was impeached, and who was also considered a racist who supported the south and "their plight,"...definitely pardoned the traitors. However, they still committed the crimes. It doesn't mean that they weren't traitors. You can't be pardoned if you didn't commit a crime. Pardoned or not, they were traitors. Chelsea Manning violated her security clearance and released cleared information to WikiLeaks. She violated the Espionage Act. She was sentenced to 35 years but got released with a commutation. Even though some think she did the right thing by making that information public, it was a clear violation of the oath she took for the army and the US govt. She was a traitor. I'm sure that her family was upset and down the line her ancestors will be sad, but do we put up a statue to commemorate her? I'm sorry for all the Confederate soldiers who got sucked in and for those who lost property like family heirlooms (not people), but they backed a traitorous cause and did so to keep the right to own people. For those who were too poor to own people, they fought for the right to feel that they were better than a whole group of people. The Confederate flag is not about honoring ancestors or southern pride. It's making sure that people of that race know that they aren't and never will be equal. There is nothing for them to be proud of. My paternal grandparents and their forebears were racist and bigots in New England. I'm ashamed of them. Many of my cousins feel the same way. These whole trails after each of these articles astounds me. I had no idea how blatantly racist some of the participants are (or say things that I am sure they think are racist but don't realize it.) I am from a conservative family and sadly some of them are so because they are following their ancestors without doing a lick of research and making judgments without looking at both sides of an issue. My dad votes all Republican "out of habit." Total quote. It would be nice if we could have a decent discussion without slinging mud. Differing opinions are not just fine, but encouraged. Changing history, name calling, and mud slinging are not.[crying]

Voltaire

Jbsets—OK. The idea of giving the Confederates general amnesty originally came from President Lincoln. On December 8, 1863, in his annual message to Congress, President Lincoln outlined his plans for the reconstruction of the South which included general amnesty for former Confederates. Unfortunately, Lincoln was assassinated before he could implement his reconstruction plan. Andrew Johnson, as I have previously stated, granted general amnesty to the Confederates on December 25, 1868. The official declaration stated “..unconditionally, and without reservation,…a full pardon and amnesty for the offence of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of rights, privileges, and mmunities under the Constitution and the laws.” The situation between Andrew Johnson’s issuance of a pardon/amnesty to the Confederates is totally different than the situation with Chelsea Manning. Unlike Chelsea Manning, there were no prosecution/trial for the Confederates. The legal definition of amnesty is as follows: Amnesty allows the government of a nation or state to "forget" criminal acts, usually before prosecution has occurred. Amnesty has traditionally been used as a political tool of compromise and reunion following a war. An act of amnesty is generally granted to a group of people who have committed crimes against the state, such as Treason, rebellion, or desertion from the military. Since there was no trial and no conviction, the amnesty eradicates the argument that the Confederates are still traitors as the amnesty clears them of the offense of treason. The viewpoint on Andrew Johnson’s term as President of the United States does not change the legality of the issuance of general amnesty.

Your statement about the Confederate Flag is subjective and based on a regional (New England) viewpoint. Yes, for some people, the Confederate Flag is about honoring ancestors and southern pride. Even the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) agrees on that principle. The ADL noted “While a number of non-extremists still use the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage or pride…” The ADL also noted that “….there is a growing recognition, especially outside the South, that the symbol is offensive to many Americans.” The definition of a flag, per Dictionary.com is as follows: “A piece of cloth, varying in size, shape, color, and design, usually attached at one edge to a staff or cord, and used as the symbol of a nation, state, or organization…” The historical record shows that there are 3 Confederate Flags and that they represented the Confederate States of America (CSA). The interpretation of those flags is subjective and varies based on region/political viewpoint. That is acceptable. However, it is not acceptable for the “popular majority” to attempt to belittle those individuals who do not agree with their viewpoint. You cannot have a “conversation” when the majority wants to make it a monologue and not want to try to listen to other viewpoints that it does not want to accept/acknowledge/understand. It is also not acceptable to dismiss other viewpoints as “mud slinging” “name calling” and “changing history” simply because someone presents a different viewpoint. I do agree with you that name calling is juvenile and does nothing to advance a conversation.

Misty Mountain

The silent majority has a skin color other than white. Those that are white are standing strong with those that are not white. Crawl back into your Waterford mansion and enjoy the last remaining days of having the cards stacked in favor of whitey.

Voltaire

Misty Mountain--do you like to make unfounded statements? How do you know that ALL white Caucasians are "standing strong with those that are not white?" Do you have anything to support that premise? No, you don't have anything to support that premise. I am also glad to see that we are using racial names/stereotypes ("whitey"). That certainly strengthens an argument powerfully....NOT.

jbsets

Since I can't reply to your reply to me... Mud slinging is name calling. Everything that you post is just your opinion based on your background and region. You have some information that you can back up and some of it is correct and I even agree with you. Doesn't make all of what you say right either. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Also, what was the crack about the New England region? Just because my grandparents were originally from Vermont and Maine and literally met and married in the middle (NH) where they raised my dad, doesn't mean that I am.

sol9001

You might be a racist

amerigirl

Looks like you are doing most of the crying, What makes you think that 'all the violence, hate speech, burning businesses, abuse, hatred, bigotry' is a liberal thing. It's not, they have their own cause. Try the peaceful protesters they are the left. Your world seems very confused with who is who so you just pick a group to blame things on, how trumpian. Yuo have to know by now that there is no way that the liar in chief will make it in November, he has already started his excuses on why he will lose.

Duncan Idaho

Wow, that's a shame. And now I've forgotten all the history I learned about...what was it...the Civil War.

sterling20164

Good Marvel movie.

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