Purcellville’s Loudoun Plaza shopping center parking lot became the rallying point for more than 1,000 participants in a peaceful protest for racial equality Sunday afternoon.

Attendees gathered around 3 p.m. at the edge of the parking lot and spilled onto Main Street, a large portion of which local law enforcement blocked off to allow protesters to parade to Purcellville Town Hall roughly three-quarters of a mile away.

While waiting for the procession to begin, participants took turns signing a large banner reading “Love & Unity Leads the Way,” mirroring a similar activity prior to last week’s march in Leesburg.

Purcellville resident Noah Franco, who assisted in organizing the event, then led a moment of silence in honor of George Floyd, an unarmed black man whose death two weeks ago sparked ongoing international outrage and a wave of support for the “Black Lives Matter” movement.

The silence endured for eight minutes and 46 seconds, roughly the amount of time a Minneapolis police officer knelt on Floyd’s neck, leading to his death by asphyxiation.

“That was long, right?” Franco said after the moment of silence had been observed. “Now imagine if you couldn’t breathe that whole time.”

Purcellville Mayor Kwasi Fraser then led the crowd westward down Main Street, carrying the signed banner with the help of another demonstrator. Marchers hoisted signs and participated in chants while several locals stood on the sidewalks holding supportive signs of their own; one group of bystanders passed out drinks to protesters.

About halfway along the marching route, another group of roughly a dozen citizens gathered on the front lawn of the Purcell Store, a gun shop. Several of them wore garments or held signs bearing slogans such as “All Lives Matter” and “Blue Lives Matter,” and a few carried semi-automatic rifles.

Numerous verbal confrontations between this group and the parading protesters ensued both during and after the event, though no physical altercations have yet been reported. When challenged, one rifle-carrying man said to a protester, “You’re exercising your First Amendment rights, we’re exercising our Second Amendment rights.”

“We all matter. That’s what we believe,” he later said.

Loudoun County Board of Supervisors Chairwoman Phyllis Randall (D) spoke to the Times-Mirror later in the procession, commenting on the rhetoric and actions of those positioned in front of the Purcell Store.

“Obviously, all lives matter, but right now not everyone knows that all lives includes black lives,” she said. “When people are standing in front of a gun [shop], fully armed with semi-automatic weapons … they’re trying to incite, but it didn’t. They were not successful.”

Randall was one of several elected officials and public figures to address the crowd from the steps of Town Hall. These also included Fraser, Congresswoman Jennifer Wexton (D-10th), Purcellville Chief of Police Cynthia McAlister and former Loudoun NAACP President Phillip Thompson, who spoke in place of current president Michelle Thomas, whose 16-year-old son died Thursday.

Equally prominent during this segment of the protest were the voices of young Loudoun County citizens, including Franco and several fellow Loudoun Valley High School alumni who also assisted in organizing the event.

One of these, Joshua Fox of Middleburg, began his address by thanking McAlister and the Purcellville Police Department for helping facilitate the protest, all while acknowledging the sensitive relationship between protesters and law enforcement.

“I’ve said some awful things about police in the last week, and not all of them I regret, and not all of them are untrue … but I just want you guys to know that Police Chief McAlister is here today protecting us,” Fox said. “She went out of our way to help us organize it.”

He was followed by 15-year-old Woodgrove High School student Peyton Arnett, who acts as a student representative for the Loudoun NAACP. Despite her age, Arnett ardently challenged her adult peers to use whatever abilities and power they have to promote necessary change for racial equality and justice.

“A better future can’t and won’t happen if students don’t voice their opinions,” she said. “I’m tired of seeing police officers, who are supposed to protect all citizens, kill innocent black people. … We not only need to fix policy, but laws need to be rewritten, and the system needs to be changed.”

As an African American at a predominately Caucasian school, Arnett expressed her viewpoint that black students “are not afforded equal opportunities as compared to our white counterparts,” citing her and other students’ recent failure to secure a sponsor for a black student union at Woodgrove.

“This [issue] isn’t just in big cities or the federal and state governments, but it’s also here in our schools,” she said, further claiming that offensive, race-based comments in the halls and classrooms of her school often go unpunished.

Fraser was among the last to speak, celebrating the fact that an event with such large turnout began with a single email from a concerned citizen. He then addressed the many children, teens and young adults in the crowd.

“This righteous rage is for construction, not for destruction,” Fraser said. “Over 400 years in slavery and 100-plus years of apartheid, and we’re still fighting the same fight. So we’re looking to you as the new generation.”

Sunday’s event was one of several demonstrations that took place throughout the county over the weekend, including one each in Sterling and Leesburg.

 

(437) comments

amerigirl

Romano, heart? What heart? such a bully and egotist.Can you stick to the article . It looks like that has proven too difficult for you.

amerigurl

BLM! Defund the Purcellville police! Establish the Purcellville Autonomous Zone!

Klinhoffer

Can you believe this was written 230 years ago by a former president?

John Adams, Second President of The United States, 1787

Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States

1787

Works 6:8--9

Suppose a nation, rich and poor, high and low, ten millions in number, all assembled together; not more than one or two millions will have lands, houses, or any personal property; if we take into the account the women and children, or even if we leave them out of the question, a great majority of every nation is wholly destitute of property, except a small quantity of clothes, and a few trifles of other movables. Would Mr. Nedham be responsible that, if all were to be decided by a vote of the majority, the eight or nine millions who have no property, would not think of usurping over the rights of the one or two millions who have? Property is surely a right of mankind as really as liberty. Perhaps, at first, prejudice, habit, shame or fear, principle or religion, would restrain the poor from attacking the rich, and the idle from usurping on the industrious; but the time would not be long before courage and enterprise would come, and pretexts be invented by degrees, to countenance the majority in dividing all the property among them, or at least, in sharing it equally with its present possessors. Debts would be abolished first; taxes laid heavy on the rich, and not at all on the others; and at last a downright equal division of every thing be demanded, and voted. What would be the consequence of this? The idle, the vicious, the intemperate, would rush into the utmost extravagance of debauchery, sell and spend all their share, and then demand a new division of those who purchased from them. The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

The Founders' Constitution - Volume 1, Chapter 16, Document 15

The University of Chicago Press

Fairmont

WOW! That is a lot of comments for the LTM. Must have hit the Mother Load of a sore subject. Pretty clear, this is all about the simple fact that 10,000 families hold more wealth than 150 million families, primarily through the manipulation of the system and other such tools of unfairness. Provide actual free education, jobs with decent pay, and realize that healthcare of human beings should never be considered a business expense, and a lot of these endlessly simmering issues would end. But as are all firmly entrenched in our own "side's" Echo Chamber, the maddness continues.

romano

socialist alert!

Fairmont

Live your truth. The US is not a free market system. If you so believe you are sorely deluded sir.

romano

looks like someone ventured off the Occupy Wall St court square

amerigirl

Romano, are you in this discussion to cut people down or do you have anything relevant to say? Stop with the ego trip.

amerigirl

white nationalist alert.

Freedom

So for the veterans who stood tall for everyone’s freedoms can we be left the hell alone and not pulled into discussions by either side ? We didn’t ask for anything when we defended all and their rights - just leave us the hell alone

ace10

Is hard work, wise investment and invention/innovation the "manipulation of the system?"

I'm guessing you would want to see significant price/cost controls on health care?

amerigirl

[offtopic]

Well Water Person

OMG! All of this S__T and self flagellation for a known felon.

amerigirl

His past should NOT have anything to do with what caused his and many other unarmed blacks and people of color deaths. Attack the victim how low.

Freedom

It appears 100,s if not thousands of the dc national guard have tested positive for covid19- others in this area have known to have been at protest - why isn’t the local leadership calling out for those at protest to get tested and or quartine ?

Klinhoffer

You can always count on CindyLou and Amerigirl to provide shaming on people causing a risk to others thru Covid-19. But in this case, it may not be convenient.

amerigirl

They have, since many of the corrections officers there were from prison with Covid explosions. I think that was planned so trump could try to blame protesters.

Freedom

I could care less what the president says about Covid 19- the virus is relentless and not germane to the protests - with exception of safety for others first -

amerigirl

and some of the states that opened too early are now hitting their highest numbers ever. Gotta feeling Northam did it right.

Guest

Trump is so dumb because _____.

Trump is evil and smart to plan this by _____.

amerigirl

Top line needs to be much longer ant the second should say evil and conniving

adopted_va_son

In VA there were just 8 deaths attributed to correctional facilities with 1,624 cases. Many nursing homes in VA killed multiples of those including 853 deaths to date. Do "OLD lives matter"?

Guest

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UIDsKdeFOmQ&persist_app=1&app=m

Guest

Published on Jun 9, 2020

Erin Marie Olszewski is a Nurse-turned-investigative journalist, who has spent the last few months on the frontlines of the

Guest

Published on Jun 9, 2020

Erin Marie Olszewski is a Nurse-turned-investigative journalist, who has spent the last few months on the frontlines of the Covid-19 fight nurse Elmhurst hospital they are killing people

amerigirl

You can't protest to stop Covid, wish it was that simple. It is 9 deaths now but it shouldn't be just deaths that worry people. There is so much vascular problems related to in in the 30-59 age group. Some of this becomes strokes or other problems they can recover from some causes permanent damage.

Guest

The amount of deaths are only counted as Covid19 when they are verified as having the virus. Most States and Commonwealths seriously undercount the toll as they’re not testing most corpses

Guest

Published on Jun 9, 2020

Erin Marie Olszewski is a Nurse-turned-investigative journalist, who has spent the last few months on the frontlines of the Covid19 before protests read up

Loudoun4Trump

In 2019 there were approx. 7,000 murdered african americans (black on black crime) and there were 10 police officers who killed a black person.....8 of those 10 justified through witnesses or bodycam footage, the other 2 the officers are in jail awaiting justice. So the solution by the radical leftists is to defund the police? Surely to contribute to the 7,000 number increasing drastically....so I thought black lives mattered? I guess only when it can advance a false narrative to divide the country in an effort to get basement joe elected this fall.....unreal!

amerigirl

What does black on black or even white on white crime have to do with social justice? Most of police brutality even isn't recorded, and not all the ones that are recorded are used against the cops. If you want stats then you should get those stats. Do you understand what defunding the police means? It is transferring some of the funding to be proactive to avid crime happening in the first place.

romano

Your first question in this message exposes you as a "woke" lightweight who doesn't understand the issues. Your comment about brutality not being recorded is an excuse for not having any evidence whatsover to back up your claims. Holy moly amerigirl... you can do better on this, can't you?

amerigirl

What claims? I understand the issues well at least I am not trying to skew police brutality with the crime rate. You don't seem to understand that that the way police treat blacks that are unarmed or accused of a small misdemeanor crime is not how they treat whites. If a white person had been suspected of using a counterfeit 20$ do you think there is even a chance they would end up dead because of it? And at the hands of the cop that worked the same place he did on his off hours and didn't like, not to mention knew that he could have gotten the bill from that location? It would never happen to a white person.

Freedom

Police should not be the ones who charge the accused - expand the Miranda rights to include the accused having a court paid for lawyer before being charged - create various levels of police - such as small crimes and domestic division - so Robo cops like Ferguson and minn - don’t over react -

Guest

2% of people in the general population have mental illness defined as sociopathy. 40% of the people in authority driven professions have mental illness defined as Sociopathy. Police, Politicians, Doctors, and many in the Educational Industry are defined as authority driven positions. You don’t see Doctors and Teachers attempting to kill people or tell them how they should live their lives.

Lawman

The Revolution is coming to a neighborhood near you. Ashburn you next. But you can get away, just across the border to beautiful West Virginia to do some house hunting. Stay out of Charleston the Revolution is there too. And it is being televised!!!

ace10

A catch phrase is no substitute for mental acuity.

amerigirl

With a little mental acuity you would understand the term catch phrase.

Freedom

Looks like the protest in Charlston wv was canceled for safety reasons

Voltaire

Based on what I read in the Charleston Mail-Gazette, you are correct Freedom. Oh, THAT DECISION WAS TELEVISED!!!! LOL!

amerigirl

That was not canceled by the police. It was cancelled because some self-righteous bully was making threats. People have shown up everyday anyway for days now. Charleston Police Chief Tyke Hunt said"Because we do feel this is a very good cause. It was a tragic event that should have never happened. As a police officer, I am embarrassed that person was even allowed to wear a badge."

Voltaire

AG--I didn't say that the event was cancelled by the police. The Charleston Mail-Gazette said the Mayor said it was cancelled for safety reasons. Somebody making threats would qualify as a "safety reason". I agree with the Charleston Police Chief's viewpoint, in general.

amerigirl

VOL, you just seemed so pleased that it was cancelled. even if it was by someone breaking the law. Hope they catch the person and charge him with terrorism. Though people showed up for it anyway it is just wrong to threaten others for not holding your views.

Guest

Stay in your ghetto Lawman. We don’t want your kind up here. That’s why we priced you out :)

amerigirl

That is really racist. You think lawman is black therefore he must live in a ghetto? SICK

Guest

lawwoman can’t afford the gas to Ashburn.

amerigirl

Are you being elitist or is that your white privilege showing?

Guest

Lawman makes threats than deletes his comments. Keyboard gangster. Come find out how many homeowners are packing heat.

amerigirl

What?? the paper deletes it, he can't. They will delete posts they deem inappropriate. Like if I report this post you just made they will take it down because you made a threat.

RoundHillGuy

Ashburn is full of feds, good luck going into a neighborhood full of Federal law enforcement and military and starting some civil unrest. It's gonna go really well for you,

amerigirl

Minneapolis were going around slashing car tires according to 2 police agencies. Protect and serve? My butt. Every car in the Kmart parking lot that was supposed to be a medical station. They targeted News outlets, claiming that they could be used as weapons, even after the being shown press passes. Then they laughed about it. Sure, none of the other vehicles in the city had the possibility of being weapons? They also targeted health care workers. A tow truck driver after capturing video of police slashing the tires of a pickup truck parked in the K-Mart parking lot, claimed he’d been busy all day on calls to tow people’s cars, including medical worker and news crew vehicles. I guess that’s their tax dollars at work. No wonder the state of Minn. Is suing the police dept.

Voltaire

AG--according to the Minnesota Star Tribune, the Minnesota Department of Public Safety stated that the Minnesota State Patrol (MSP) (with assistance from the Anoka Sheriff's Office) strategically deflated tires … in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement," The MSP also targeted vehicles "that contained items used to cause harm during violent protests" such as rocks, concrete and sticks. ...Vehicles were being used as dangerous weapons and inhibited our ability to clear areas and keep areas safe where violent protests were occurring," Further, according to the Department of Public Safety, there will be an internal review to determine if this tactic was appropriate. BTW, they targeted all vehicles, they didn't discriminate. From a tactical perspective, that approach does make sense given the rioting situation. People were using cars as weapons and that is an effective measure to stop that. There is nothing that states the officers' "laughed about it". They wouldn't have to take drastic measures if people weren't using cars/trucks as weapons and ramming police lines. The Minneapolis Police Department, the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office had NOTHING to do with this incident so the State is suing them for this.

amerigirl

Sure they did, that's just the excuse they used, They knew that the press was parking there because they saw credentials. Even if that was true, which no one believed, all 4 tires? And only a few location? Yes there reporter, in fact 2 reporters aid that the cops laughed at them. One was from the New Yorker, “They were laughing,” Mogelson recalled. “They had grins on their faces.”“State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires … in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement,” Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon told the Star Tribune.

Voltaire

AG--and the point is what, pray tell? So what if the Minnesota State Patrol or the Anoka County Sheriff's Department personnel had smiles on their faces. It doesn't dispute the fact that the tactic of tire deflation would sufficiently stop people from using vehicles to ram police lines and other people. You can still drive a car with deflated tires, not well, but doable and that is why all 4 tires needed to be deflated.

amerigirl

You do not have to deflate all tires and the rest of the vehicles in the area also could have been used as weapons but they were picky about which ones the did. Ridiculous that you are making those types of excuses. Why then did the cop telll the other cops doing it to "put him at the top of the list" when press credentials were shown? CBS; Minnesota State Patrol troopers have admitted to "strategically" deflating tires during protests following the death of George Floyd. The state's Department of Public Safety (DPS) confirmed the action, CBS Minnesota reports, after social media videos emerged of officers appearing to slash tires in parking lots amid the demonstrations. I'm glad the operation is under review and they should have to pay for those tires.

scottva

Another great example of Black Lives Matter doing for the black community: "Manufacturing company in Minneapolis since 1987 leaving city after violent protests"

amerigirl

Sounds like they sided with BLM

Nosealioningplease

I will say that Purcell Store is a disgrace and should be run out of town. I cannot even fathom getting that worked up over a demonstration like that to behave in such a fashion. I hope every single person who stood on the corner and jeered is publicly shamed and that "nurse" with the long gun is reported to her employer and fired.

Guest

Another BS protest with a BS message.

Case in point in the high school kid that was complaining that black students don’t get the same opportunities as white students because he couldn’t get a sponsor for a black student union. There is a student union for all kids, black, white, etc. Do we really want separate student unions for all races in our schools?

This the divisive BS these protests are about.

amerigirl

Where was that?

Guest

It’s in the article. Read the article before making things up.

amerigirl

Guest, so touchy!

romano

I wasn't there so can't say for sure but perhaps the folks at the Purcell Store were concerned that this protest, like many across the country, would resemble more of a riot. Perhaps the Purcell Store folks just wanted to make sure their neighborhood business district wasn't burned down like many across the country.

amerigirl

Sure because that happens in Loudoun all the time. They were there to show off their guns and do a little I'm more powerful than you cause I gotta a gun demonstration.

romano

we don't get radical left wing groups like BLM and their wacko buds Antifa "all the time in Loudoun" either, Amerigirl. Remember....not everyone is scared of guns like frightened leftists are.

amerigirl

Romano, you are so ignorant of facts. You think that people on the left don't have guns? We do, I do. But I'm not the person who would go standing in public with a gun when others are making a peaceful protest. I stand by my words. There ween't even any antifa at the DC protest and you think they are coming to Loudoun? HAH!

Guest

Setting aside the obvious that it's HYSTERICAL that they thought "Antifa" (which isn't actually an organization, but I digress) would come to Purcellville, it wasn't their place. The fact that they are so fearful suggests mental illness, and they should all have Red Flag laws taken away. Then they should all be publicly outed and shamed and fired from their jobs. Talk about garbage Americans.

Guest

Did they think it was Antifa? I thought it was alt right? I feel like a business owner would want to defend against either. You as a guest throwing around red flag laws show why these things should be limited. Clearly already being abused ideologically.

Guest

Would I have been hanging out with an AR to antagonize the protesters? No. However, those people have the right to express their views just like the BLM people. Interesting that you think they should lose their jobs because their speech doesn't align with yours. That, my friends, is what ultimately happens when you give the left power. One only needs to open a history book. Coming soon...re-education camps for wrong thinkers.

Guest

Except, doxing has been the go-to strategy for right-wing provocateurs forever. Why did those idiots need to "counter" a demonstration with a display of force under the guise of exercising their rights? How bizarre. And how irresponsible. They are a disgrace to gun owners. I'm not saying take everyone's guns away -- just theirs. They don't deserve them. They are obviously bad Americans.

amerigirl

Guest, if you want to hanging out with an AR then get your own rally, it's been done before.

KK153

so you hope everyone who stood on that corner and exercised their lawful rights under the USC in a very peaceful fashion is fired? Another tolerant liberal.

By the way, Dave Purcells family has been here for a while...thus the name "Purcellville"... how long you been in town bro?

Guest

Oh, the old "why won't you tolerate my intolerance?" trope. Try harder. I don't give a shit how long he's been there -- he certainly didn't represent the values of Western Loudoun faithfully on Sunday. Who the hell shows off long guns to try to intimidate demonstrators protesting violence? Talk about tone deaf.

amerigirl

Too much white privilege in Loudoun.

KK153

move to Detroit

Voltaire

KK153--don't mess with the "D" LOL[smile]

amerigirl

You know where you can go.

Voltaire

AG--how can you make that claim?

amerigurl

MAGA!

amerigirl

Morons are Governing America, what are you gurl? a redneck?? white supremacist?? or just a third grader that can't spell??

scottva

So how do you define that Amerigirl? What is that exactly? Just because my skin is white I'm privileged? You don't know crap about me or what F I've been through. If my life is considered "privileged", I wouldn't give it to anyone. You are so self-righteous and arrogant, don't ever make assumptions and cast aspersions about a collective group of people, that is the very definition of racism. Too much white trash making comments here.

amerigirl

Because your sin is white you are not recognizing what is happening to people of color. No I don't know you but I read your posts. Not your life is "privileged", your understanding of how people are treated is. You're right there is too much white trash commenting, maybe you should take a break.

romano

Wow...Amerigirl is showing her snowflake bona fides tonight! Phony white guilt? Check. Fear and loathing of firearms? Check. Complete lack of data to support her whiny left wing positions? CHECK! Bam!

amerigurl

I love Donald Trump!

amerigirl

Not safe to say if you're an underage girl.

RoundHillGuy

Too many virtue signaling Karens in Loudoun .

Freedom

That’s collective punishment people have their point of view also - hate and more hate equals hate peace - in the great words of a great man you sound like you have a paper butt hole

Lawman

Enough hot air expired by all you LOCO rocket scientist in these comments to make the Hindenburg fly. The best part of it is that none of you, and I do mean none of you will be involved in the upcoming debate on the changes we will see in this County, Thank God. But West Virginia’s Governor has a new slogan. West Virginia is for racist. So those of you who don’t fit the new Loudoun County, please leave and on your way out take Liberty University and Patrick Henry College with you. The Revolution IS BEING Televised Nightly!!!

Guest

My foot up your a*** is gonna televised soon.

Lawman

Guest, even your attempt that would fundamentally and dramatically decrease your time life span. Then you would miss the Revolution as it is being televised

amerigirl

LOL

Guest

Lawman knows deep down nothing is going to change. Him and his brethren will continue to kill each other and blame everyone else for their problems.

amerigirl

Guest, it's already changing, open those eyes.

Voltaire

Lawman--can you prove that West Virginia changed its slogan. No, because it hasn't. As for Liberty University and Patrick Henry College, a geography lesson may be in order as both institutions are not in Loudoun County. Further, how do YOU know that there is an "upcoming debate on the changes in this County"? The answer is that you don't so you are simply pontificating a non-existent premise. Who are YOU to determine who lives in this county or not? The answer is that you don't.

Lawman

THE REVOLUTION IS BEING TELEVISED. TURN ON YOUR TV’s.

Voltaire

WHAT CHANNEL? There are over 500 channels on TV. Wow, give me a break....

Freedom

I did all we saw was Chris coumo doing nude yoga

Voltaire

Freedom--wow, that image is quite disturbing. Thanks for sharing that......LOL

amerigirl

Freedom he wasn't doing yoga, she was, on the internet and he didn't know it. One of many oops shots during the virus.

Freedom

I’m currently involved with a debate with the county and many county’s - but thanks - be advised be advised the covid19 is winning the debate - be advised be advised spreading the virus is a crime - be advised be advised all movements of everyone are traced stop the virus protect the children

Guestl Law woman retired

You are so right!! It seems we have adults acting like kids!. Stop embarrassing yourself and your family. Now, my question is shall we continue with the same , or shall we show compassion , and change our tactics? Just remember, God don’t sleep, nor does he slumber. The public are fed up, and We need to get the criminals out of the police departments. So ,snich, rat ,tell on those bastards that are causing the problems inside your deoartment. So we can all move on in peace. No justice, no peace! Yes, all lives matter, but black lives are being taken unlawfully! Officers need to do theur jobs without biases, without malice aforethought. If you are tired, stressed, angry , depressed, or on drugs, stay home ! We don’t need you in the streets in that condition! If you can’t stand the heat , get out of the kitchen,. You know what I mean!😡

scottva

Attention White Guilt Strapped People: Below is an excerpt from a new news article that is about how the Chicago representatives were pleading to the mayor for help. Take note to the sentence that has words in all caps. Rep. Lopez did not say cops or white people he said "ARMED GANG MEMBERS WERE THREATENING TO SHOOT BLACK PEOPLE". Take your white guilt to Chicago if you're so concerned about all black lives and maybe contact your local BLM rep to let them know there's a problem with blacks being targeted by gangs and NOT COPS or WHITE PEOPLE.

"On the call, others took aim at Lightfoot herself for her response to the crisis. One man, identified by WTTW News as Alderman Raymond Lopez, demanded that Lightfoot develop a plan to stabilize Chicago’s neighborhoods for five days, calling his Southwest Side ward “a virtual war zone” where ARMED GANG MEMBERS WERE THREATENING TO SHOOT BLACK PEOPLE. When he demanded she [mayor of Chicago] respond to the remarks, Lightfoot told him he was “100 percent full of s--t.”. “Well, f--k you then,” Lopez responded.

Guest

So racism and racist actions of cops don’t exist according to so many here

pual mase

I don't see anyone saying racism doesn't exist or there are bad actions by cops.

A few isolated, unrelated incidents do not add up to "systemic racism" and "defund the cops". They certainly don't justify the riots, murder, looting and destruction of property we have seen as a result.

amerigirl

Pual, then can you tell me how many unarmed black people have been killed by cops in the last 5 years? Do you see it stopping without something happening?

CindyLou

Pual mase. the KKK, white supremacy groups, Trump supporters, drug addicts and crimminals are doing the riots, murder and looting. Protestors are not doing any damage. The others might be some friends of yours.

pual mase

AG there were many more unarmed whites killed by cops and the solutions for stopping and reducing it is the same for blacks and whites.

I bet the numbers could be greatly reduced if people didn’t put themselves in criminal and confrontational situations with cops.

romano

Cindy Lou, it takes a special kind of stupid to believe that Trump supporters and white supremacists are doing the damage. Pretty much no one at this point believes that. Special kind of stupid. LOL

scottva

@Amerigirl - go and take a look at the data that the NAACP & BLM use, they get it right from the WaPo database of police violence. Don't take anyone's word for it BUT if it's good enough for the NAACP & BLM to try and make a point then it should be good enough to paint an honest picture, after all it is the source they use.

amerigirl

Romano, you just called yourself special kind of stupid. Keep up with the news. It was the head of the KKK that drove the truck into people in Richmond. People who have been arrested have had their names on the FBI data base for being in white nationalist groups the proud boys and the 3 percent. Boogaloo Boys have been spotted in many cities causing problems in their Hawaiian shirts and armed to the teeth, Right wing terrorist had directions on how to dress like antifa and riot at protests. Donboy Jr. even retweeted one of them before twitter took them down. Yeah you are a special kind of stupid if you don’t get the facts and make fun of someone else for setting you straight. Don’t be so ignorant of the issues and keep up with what is going on if you want to comment on it.

amerigirl

You are turning a blind eye

amerigirl

Pual, how many more white men are there to black men? If you think it is the same problem you aren't paying attention. If you go simply by population black men are much more likely to be killed by a cop than white men.

pual mase

Don’t be a tool of BLM AG.

Blacks account for 50% of murders and robberies and represent 13% of the population.

Therefore they are responsible for disproportional number of police interactions.

If BLM?NAACP were honest, which they are certainly not, they would work to reduce black crime which would reduce police interactions and the potential for violent outcomes.

amerigirl

Scott, That is not where they get their data, they get it from the same source maybe. but if you think that WAPO is collecting and analyzing figures you're wrong. Give a reference site then.

amerigirl

Pual, and what do crime stats have to do with social justice? You are just a tool for the ult-right. You are lying about the data, check it out before you spout.

Freedom

There’s videos out there in Chicago area where the Latino community defended themselves from looters posed as protestors- they were armed ( sad it came

To violence ) but they saved their stores and business

amerigirl

How idiotic is it to say that you have to be guilt strapped to want equality? It has nothing to do with guilt, it is humanity, something you would know nothing about. republican alderman Lopez, that would be a typical republican response. All bluster. Cite your sources, it’s nowhere on the web.

scottva

Good Lord you're out of touch. Look it up Amerigirl, LTM removes links. If I were going to sit around my house and fabricate a story, I seriously doubt it would involve an alderman I never heard of and that sad Chicago mayor. You're conflating things. You possess white guilt IF you are down with BLM because it is picking and choosing which blacks to care about, the ones killed by cops or white people. Make no mistake, BLM is not for all blacks. If you believe differently, please explain the 18 blacks murdered on May 31 in Chicago alone. BLM makes no reference, no signs or slogans, to chants, does not hold any protests for them, and if you think they are/do then why do they only know the name, George Floyd? I'm done with you. Next.

amerigirl

Do you not understand that if you drastically break the rules to comment here that they will censor you? You're post are not printed or removed because they are extreme. Calm down and follow the rules. I did look it up and it was an alderman. Look at your own post, second paragraph, you said it yourself. You assume too much, You don't have to have guilt to see abuse. Why would I have guilt, I didn't do the abusing, Your statement is a stretch. If they didn't care for all blacks then why would they want defunding and moving monies to areas where they are proactive for the community of color?

Guest

Blacks have all the rights afforded to whites. Please give me examples where this is not so and I'll entertain it. Otherwise, it's all guilt and revenge, so snap out of your enlightened haze.

amerigirl

Sure they legally have the rights. But try dong anything while being black. Driving, sleeping, shopping etc. Start dealing with the reality of the situation.

amerigirl

I thought this article was about Purcellville, [offtopic][offtopic]

pual mase

Sure AG change the subject when you are exposed as a fraud.

amerigirl

pual, use your brain and talk about the article not the people here. I have 2 post there that address both things. Being a bully on stagnates your thought power. (more)

gtrunner

A 1000 people at a rally and my private community pool can’t open and operate for the community. Thanks, Northam!

RoundHillGuy

300 in round hill protest, but you cant sit inside tammys diner. Politicians will not call out the woke mob but will come down on the little guy business owner. Trump 2020.

amerigirl

BooHoo for you. they can do delivery, outside dining and the PPP doesn't end until July 31st. They did it your way and the numbers went right back up. Alabama had the biggest weekly increase at 28%, Missouri’s new cases rose 27% and North Carolina’s rose 26%,

Guest

They also did it your way, AG, and the people that did it that way then ignored their own procedures.

amerigirl

Guest, what do you mean?

amerigirl

Go jump in the sprinkler.

Loudoun4Trump

BLMs policy planks is to defund the police.....I assume since they do not control the police it is an effort to put in their own version of the brownshirts to punish political opponents....meanwhile in Chicago 48 people killed in two weeks....not one media outlet covered any of these tragedies, and where was BLM? oh yeah, trying to defund the police....don't fall for this democrat political group, they could care less about black lives, this is all about power and winning an election in November.....very sad!

Guest

White people should simply not post about BLM. You are only showing how foolish you truly are

KK153

so based on your skin color you have no right to free speech.. got it. thx for making your true feelings on the matter known

Guest

Oh KK. Free speech does not excuse you from stupidity.

amerigirl

It's on your knowledge of the treatment of people of different skin color. You seem pretty ignorant of the facts.

romano

facts are never the BLM lover's friend, that's for sure.

BLM: cops are killing unarmed black men all over!

Me: can you show me any data to support this?

BLM: Racist!

Guest

You can be well read and still be racist. Misconstruing facts does not excuse you.

pual mase

Read the facts below from scottva and stop the racism BS

amerigirl

I knew you lived in fantasy land, now there is proof

amerigirl

There is a lot of data, why are you making it out to not be so? Afraid of the truth?

scottva

Ahhh yes, I'm familiar with this extended Q&A, always the same answer.

pual mase

BLM is based on lies and supported by fools.

amerigirl

Only a fool would say that.

scottva

Crystal clear and Amerigirl's response is absolutely, well sad. That's the best you can do Amerigirl to defend your BLM cohorts? They would be displeased.

Loudoun4Trump

You are a racist! You are the fool and cant think for yourself....good luck to you...

scottva

Says the guy that refers to himself as "Guest". Now that is a dumb comment, almost tied with Amerigirl. Us white people should no longer post about BLM because why? We're foolish? How about because we are telling the truth and you absolutely cannot defend BLM without name-calling or some other stupid Liberal tactic. I dare you to try, bet you can't string together a few sentences that fully support that BLM is really supporting all black lives. Like taking candy from a Liberal baby and giving it to a conservative baby in the name of fairness.

amerigirl

But it is working. Police depts all over the country are looking for ways to defund police and use the money for community projects that would cut down on crime. What does Chicago have to do with anything? It must have been a fox talking point since all these righty tightys keep bringing it up in the posts. Why didn’t you look to see where BLM was instead of making it sound like they weren’t there?

scottva

Well, BLM is in Chicago but protesting and rioting for George Floyd. Are you really that dense? Chicago is America's defacto murder capital. As I said, May 31 (18) blacks murdered in Chicago and not a fricken BLM protest, comment, sign in sight. This is not physics. Should we provide support to disabled people that can operate at an 8th grade level or higher? Of course not, we need to provide support to all that are disabled. This is BLM in a nutshell. They only care about blacks killed by cops or whites. How can you sit their and type and not think to yourself "All black lives matter, right?" and still believe BLM is for all black lives. I hear Jonestown calling.

scottva

Any white people filled with white guilt who are supporting BLM familiar with any of the names below? Have you incorporated any of their names on one of your cute signs? Has your BLM leaders talked about these people below? Next time you march in a protest supporting BLM or profess your undying support to BLM, consider these people below. This list is only 50% of the people who were murdered on May 31. For those mathematically challenged, there was a total of (18) blacks murdered in Chicago on May 31. Keep in mind this is only (18) blacks murdered in ONE day and in ONE city.

Victims below were all black, none killed by a cop or white person, (2) were brothers going to visit their mother and not one of these people were killed because of racism. These people are DEAD, they have no voice, their families are left wondering why and how this could happen. It's at this moment that BLM should enter the scene and say "enough, we have to stop killing each other." Sadly, that will never happen. If you really want to put your white guilt to the test, apologize to the families of these murder victims. Surely you feel culpable or "guilty" somehow. So if you're really concerned about black lives, it should be ALL black lives that matter and not just the ones you're told matter.

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group. If this doesn't fit the description of exactly what's going on then nothing will.

1. John Tiggs, 32, a father of three, was fatally shot on May 31 while inside a Chicago Metro PCS

2. Angelo Bronson, 36, a father of two, was standing in the street in Englewood on May 31 when a bullet fired from a passing car hit him in the chest.

3. Student Lazarra Daniels, 18, was found fatally shot in the street at 10.51pm on May 31

4. Darius Jelks, 31, shot at a stoplight, on the way to visit his mother (brother to Maurice Jelks listed below)

5. Maurice Jelks, 39. shot at a stoplight, on the way to visit his mother

6. College student Keishenay Bolden, 18, was killed at about 4.25pm on May 31

7. Gregory Lewis, 21, was killed while riding in a car during the early morning hours

8. Danyal Jones, 30, was fatally shot while standing on a porch at about 2.50am

9. Myqwon Blanchard, 22, was fatally shot outside an Olive Garden restaurant at a mall being looted in North Riverside on May 31

Qwertyuiop

So you believe that because other people are murdered, the murders by police are irrelevant?

Guest

No, I believe what he said is that you lack perspective. He is also saying that your lack of perspective appears to be intentional in that it ignores the huge black on black crime problem along with the outrageously prolific amount of crime in Democrat run urban areas. And you do it all because it shines a searchlight on your political motivations and lack of interest in solving the larger problem. Now run along.

scottva

Short and to the point!

amerigirl

Get woke, it has nothing to do with black on black crime it has to do with social justice and that some cops are abusing their authority. There is plenty of white on white crime too but the chances of them getting killed by a cop while unarmed is a whole lot lower. Run along/ are you someone's grandmother?

scottva

Guest said it very well. You have blacks murdered by cops and blacks murdered by people other than law enforcement and largely by other blacks. If you add the two together you have a true and honest "Black Lives Matter" movement. If you only focus on the blacks killed by cops then you only have "Selective Black Lives Matter".

amerigirl

How stupid just trying to change the narrative. The percentage of blacks being killed by cops is still much higher than it is for whites. It is about equal justice but you just want to justify their murder with stats that don't pertain.

scottva

@Amerigirl - You really are a moron. Go look review the database that the NAACP and BLM use to throughout their scary numbers and then come back and try to make claims. Honest to God, you don;t have to agree with anything I ever say but when writing a comment, have a point that can be backed up. I can slice your expert guestimate of blacks vs whites killed by cops 6 ways to Sunday. Why? Because I've been analyzing the data to make sure I'm understanding all the variables as, they really are not how people believe them to be.

romano

all murders are relevant, all lives matter, but the murders by police of unarmed black men and statistically insignificant. Just a fact, no emotions.

Jeanne T

I'll answer your question: no, I don't. How are you making such a leap?

scottva

Man, lots of dumb comments here. I never said that. What I was doing Quackerloop was highlighting a day on the life of black people in Chicago. For the past two weeks, all we have heard is how much the police suck, they hate blacks, their racist, etc. Suddenly, I introduce something brand new to the discussion, facts you are completely unaware of or have ignored and your concern is I'm trying to change the narrative. Where did I say murders by police are irrelevant? I didn't. I said these there were 18 blacks murdered NOT by the police or white people. Big difference Quackerloop

amerigirl

That is the whole problem yo don't understand the difference between murders and the killing of unarmed black people by people in authority and everyday crimes. Get a clue. You can put all the stats in the world down and you still won't get that unarmed blacks are killed by people who are abusing their authority. In 2015 more than 100 unarmed blacks were killed by cops. Recently; Maurice Gordon, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, in the last 2 weeks. USNews; About 17% of the black people who died as a result of police harm were unarmed,

pual mase

AG don’t know if you are ignorant or just plain dumb. You have wrong numbers, wrong analysis, wrong cause and a big mouth.

scottva

And how many cops charged and convicted? How were they killed? Were they high, drunk, sober? Tool.

Voltaire

Scottva--those are very good points. You can't simply rattle off statistics about police use of force cases because each situation has many different variables that make the officer determine what course of action he uses. Sometimes, he/she may use non-lethal or less-lethal approach. Sometimes, he/she will have to use his/her service weapon. That is the nature of policing, both in major cities and in rural areas. Until someone wants to pin on a badge and walk a beat and understand that policing is not a "one-size-fits-all" approach, then you wont' understand why these officers/deputies do what they do. It is that simple.

CindyLou

scottva, hmmmmm, nope sure don't. Don't expect any guilt from them. Racist people don't have guilt and don't know they are racist. I never heard of them I am sorry to say but none of them were tortured and murdered BY POLICE for 8 minutes and 36 seconds, while handcuffed, while 4 other officers stood there and let him scream, "I can't breath" "I want my momma" Maybe his death can help in some way. People have been trying to protest and bring these deaths you mentioned and hundreds of others to justice but people just don't get it. It's open season always on black men and youths and just maybe, Floyd's death can stop it.

Freedom

All the more reason to have police that deal with small issues like the George Floyd issue think about it the reason the killer Robo cop was involved is a alleged fake $20 bill come on ! He was hungry there no work for a lot of people - the domestic special police could have visited him at his house later - this wouldn’t have happened same with Ferguson

Voltaire

Freedom--there is a lot wrong here with your "premises". First, Robocop is a fictitious concept that originated out of a series of movies in the 1980s and doesn't exist. Next, there is no such thing as "domestic special police." Third, if there was a crime at that market where the George Floyd incident occurred, then the police would logically make the arrest there as that location would be the scene of the criminal infraction. Why would they visit him at his house later? The answer is that they wouldn't. Comparing Minneapolis to Ferguson MO is also wrong as the two incidents are different.

Freedom

Lawd have mercy my suggestion is to create a

Domestic division within police departments premise premise - every body doesn’t have to be locked up - aka Robo cop

Voltaire

Freedom--the current organizational structure for local/state police agencies is sufficient and doesn't require radical reorganization. The last premise is also wrong as that decision is the job of the prosecutor after reviewing all the circumstances of a criminal infraction and the applicable criminal sentencing guidelines.

amerigirl

Freedom, that is exactly what many of the jurisdictions are doing with defunding money. The point is to be proactive.

Voltaire

AG--if Freedom's premise concerning George Floyd is that the individual was hungry, and/or out of work, then that is the responsibility of the Minneapolis Department of Social Services, not the job of the Minneapolis Police Department. However, as the evidence shows, he was attempting to pass counterfeit currency and that is a criminal offense and law enforcement should have responded. Now, based upon the evidence, at present, the techniques used by the officers appears excessive for the nature of the infraction committed. However, as this item hasn't been adjudicated I am not going to make a conclusive judgment.

amerigirl

Scott, "Racist people don't have guilt and don't know they are racist." just like bully's like you don't even realize they are being bullies for calling people names. Inbred.

scottva

@CindyWHO - I've missed you! You said the following:

CindyWHO: "Racist people don't have guilt and don't know they are racist."

ScottVA: If they don't know they are racist how can they not feel guilty or feel guilty about something?

CindyWHO: "I never heard of them I am sorry to say but none of them were tortured and murdered BY POLICE..."

ScottVA: So because none of these 18 black people weren't murdered by police it makes it somehow more acceptable? None of them were tortured. Really? Virtually drowning in their own blood is not torture? What will George Floyd's death help with? Burning cities down? Looting? Violence and murdering black cops? Defunding/elimination of police departments? Do you have any idea how George Floyd's death could have helped? How about cities around the country play a continuous loop of George's last 52 second video of himself and his message to kids? It was full of sound advice of what NOT to do, avoid the path he took. Then there was the passionate plea from his family that they made crying out to STOP all the looting, fires and violence, this is not how George would want to be remembered. While your comment "Maybe his death can help in some way" seems to be sincere, NO ONE cared what George or his family really wanted.

Cindy, you are 100% correct that it's open season on black people but the largest offenders are black people killing other blacks. Yes, blacks are killed by cops and so are whites. But the number pales in comparison.

scottva

This question has NOTHING to do with this article, would those posting comments find it helpful if they appeared in any sort of logical order? Perhaps most recent posted on top? I enjoy reading some comments and loathe others but the number of posts have frown considerably here and other articles. I hope this isn't perceived as a privileged request :)

amerigirl

No replies follow the statement they are replying to, other than that they are in by date.

scottva

Thank you, clearly, I overlooked that.

Freedom

I invite you to watch the Ferguson tapes and barney fife he raced over there and parked in the middle of the road

scottva

I'm concerned that BLT, Amerigirl, CindyWHO and MAGA Moron have yet to chime in.

Guest

But Brian was early so we have all be schooled properly

pual mase

Oh joy , the dimwits have arrived

amerigirl

Oh look the dimwit that can;t make a comment on the article is here being a bully instead. JOY JOY[lol][beam]

amerigirl

Be afraid, be very afraid!! LOL. Are you worried about your good old boy club?

WisdomGuidedByExperience

Remember when Loudoun county election officials said it was too dangerous to reopen because of the risk of spreading COVID-19 and causing a spike in cases?

Now, suddenly, as if by magic, it is OK to march close to each other to protest racial injustice.

Who would of thought that the COVID-19 virus was so clever and has a conscience that causes it to infect only people who want to reopen their family-owned small businesses but not people marching in protests?

scottva

Maybe, just maybe our elected officials knew that WHO was going to announce today that COVID asymptomatic people rarely if at all actually spread COVID, rather it's the symptomatic people that spread it, which makes sense. I suspect there is more here than we'll ever know.

Guest

Read the article and not just the headlines. There is a question about their messaging. Not clear if it means those who are not sick or those who don’t know they are sick yet

Freedom

To late now cases are already spiking now people act like they are concerned - the demons on

CNN who kept exciting everyone should be ashamed

leesburgresident2010

Whatever we do, let's be sure to prevent graduating seniors from having more than 5 family members watch them (from a safe distance) take a picture for "Graduation."

If we allow more it will be unsafe and reckless towards other people's health.

amerigirl

We are in phase 1, You must wear a mask and have social distance in a building. If they graduation is outside it might be different. But really what does this have to do with the article? You don't need to wear a mask outside and social distancing is recommended but nor mandatory.

Freedom

The 70”s were fun love and well no social distancing hehehe

amerigirl

oh yeah they were, peace and love!

romano

I have still yet to see a single post on here providing verifiable data to support the premise of the riots - that unarmed black men are being killed by police in epidemic numbers. It doesn't exist folks. In fact, data from the WaPo database of police shootings shows that unarmed white folks are more likely to be killed by police during arrests than unarmed black men. 2019 WaPo database. Just the facts folks.

scottva

@romano - What's really great about the WaPo database is it's the EXACT same database that the NAACP is using. I find it very convenient that the NAACP and BLM only references the 24% figure that represents blacks killed by police in 2019. That much is true, however, because they failed to take the time (deliberately) to not provide ANY additional stats, including the 37% of white people killed by cops in 2019. I did not see any reference to how cops were charged or how many were convicted. There is a treasure trove of data in this database and what's really ironic is the WaPo continues to cite different stats than their own database provides.

Nosealioningplease

Black men are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than white or Hispanic men. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

amerigirl

Do you know how to do a internet search or is that technology still out of your grasp? I wonder if you expect people to do your work for you all the time. White privilege runs rampant.

amerigirl

Just the facts, how about including how many white ment there are for every black man?

scottva

Here's a little trivia for all you white guilt-ridden save all the blacks with BLM leading the charge crusaders:

Q - How many blacks were murdered in Chicago on May 31st, 2020?

A - 18, the highest number in 60 years

Q - Did BLM happen to mention this information before your little protest?

A - No, doesnt fit the narrative

Q - Were any of them killed by a white person or a cop?

A - No

How about this, why don't you write a nice note to the parents of these murdered people and let them know you're down with the cause, however, you may want to include a side note letting them know how sorry you are that they were killed but that they don't fall into the "All Black Lives Matter" category because they weren't killed by a cop or a white person. Do you know what the true injustice is of blacks today? BLM and white guilt protestors. Was George Floyd more important than any of these 18 people NO. The only difference is he was killed by a cop, a white cop. Are you so damn blind not to be able to see this or are you just being selective?

amerigirl

Here's a clue for you, Your answers are made to fit your agenda and are really really dumb. You have proven you have no clue about what the problem is with the justice system. Write an note, how well you demean life.

Comment deleted.
Comment deleted.
Guest

Brian. That is a terrible way to talk

Comment deleted.
Guest

Wow...and that, my friends, is a public service announcement from our friends in West Virginia.

loudouncommonsense

Congratulations to all who encourage voting; I like your encouragement to "vote the ****s out" because it's likely to increase the turnout of those you disparage.

You see, calling people and their political affiliations names and pushing an agenda of conflict with government, the opposition party and those who have different cultural values isn't what most people want. National polling has those strategies at 40% approval ratings, a rate that has never increased over the past 3 1/2 years.

As was evident in the last Virginia election cycle, folks on the wrong side of that statistic will not win the fight.

Freedom

Couldn’t tell your name ***s Is that a name call ? Term limits for both sides fresh ideas power to the people

Voltaire

Freedom--if the State establishes term limits then it would apply to everyone equally (both Democrats and Republicans). How are you so confident that you will get "fresh ideas" with term limits?

Freedom

The sound of a flushing toilet and the musical theme when some of them go will make up for it if we don’t

Voltaire

Freedom--OK. How does the sound of a flushing toilet and an accompanying musical theme remotely relevant to the concept of term limits? Answer is it is not. Wow.

Freedom

$22 trillion in debt wars that never end , laws written to oppress , the sound of flushing toilet when term limits are in would sum it up for you i hope

Voltaire

Freedom--what is the source for the figure "$22 trillion in debt"? That's not right. Wars do come to end. Laws that are written to "oppress" can be challenged in courts of law and may be nullified as unconstitutional.

amerigirl

Vol, your right the US has total national debt of $24.95 trillion. When was the last time the US wasn't at war with someone? The U.S. Has Been At War 222 Out of 239 Years. One may end but there is a god chance that another one started before that one ended.

Guest

The left has a horrendous record in every country where it has been allowed to keep power for any length of time. I find it interesting that you "well educated" folks deign to help us knuckle draggers to understand if we'd only just submit to the tenets of Marx and Lenin everything would be A-OK. Keep steppin....

Freedom

And so it begins - futile futile the same war is never ending- oppress others

amerigirl

Poor Europe, and Australia, N. America. You don't seem to know the difference between democracy and communism. Still at least we aren't keeping Hitlers writings in the night stand like our current bunker Fuhrer

Guest

Also, all the crooked polling and slanted news coverage didn't seem to pan out for you folks in 2016.

Freedom

Castro wanted a great revolution for the people then tortured them and oppressed them for decades . America and our way of life is the best , just make last political people stop oppressing and WE THE PEOPLE rule , on both sides some

Of the political people need to resign- the constitution will and is a great document - live it

Voltaire

Freedom--I would agree that the U.S system (capitalism and democracy) are the best systems. As to the "We the People Rule" argument, we do rule through voting. You don't like a particular politician then vote against them. The Constitution is a great document however, you still have norms that you, as a citizen, are required to comply with.

Freedom

And accepting the judicial branch overturning the voice of the people isn’t one of them-

Voltaire

Freedom--actually, the role of the judicial branch is spelled out in the Constitution.

The judicial branch has a responsibility for ensuring that laws written by the legislature (the voice of the people) follow the constitution. The Founding Fathers didn't have a problem with that and it is part of the checks and balances that this country's government was based upon.

Freedom

The judicial branch is used as a political javelin when the people - voted something in and political types violate the constitution and use the judicial branch -

which has and is showing their lack of the law - most

if not all the judges should ask for their money back from college and law school - they should have term limits also

Voltaire

Freedom--that is again wrong. The judicial branch is used as a check to ensure that laws written by the legislature (the voice of the people) follow the constitution. Federal judges have lifetime appointments and State judges are either elected or given a fixed term by the state legislature.

amerigirl

and the judicial branch isn't working it has become trumps private lawyer and toady.

Voltaire

AG--no, that argument/statement simply doesn't work. You are probably referring to the Attorney General (reference: trumps private lawyer and toady) but the entire judicial system is more than the Attorney General. Your statement is a blanket characterization and is wrong. The courts and the whole legal system do work.

amerigirl

Vol, I stand by my words, the judicial branch isn't working. It is supposed to be independent. It is not supposed to bow to trump and investigate things based on trumps belief in conspiracy theories. Barr is overriding his own dept on trumps whims. Like the sudden about-face in the Roger Stone case. When the justice dept makes recommendations and trump doesn’t like it the decision is changed. How about Flynn? Trump wanted a justice system he could control, the reason he got rid of Sessions and took on Barr. In Feb. trump declared himself “the chief law enforcement officer of the country”. He has his toady.

RoundHillGuy

remember 2 weeks ago in this publication when "re-open " protesters demonstrated just to be able to earn a salary for them and their employees and these commenters called them flat earthers and said they hoped they all get sick with covid? See how when the cause fits your ideology , protests during covid become perfectly acceptable?

Guest

If it wasn't for double standards, the left would have no standards at all.

ace10

I do kinda remember that, now that you mention it.

And I also remember when LTM used to publish daily SCOREBOARD(tm) news stories about Covid in Loudoun. I guess there was a cure, or something.

amerigirl

You have a problem with timelines. There was a problem with reopening but that was more than 2 weeks ago. We were originally supposed to open On May 8th, over a month ago. And it was kept in phase 0 then on May 29 we entered phase 1. In the current phase, that 1, you have to wear a mask indoors not outdoors.

Thetruthhurts

When you see what is going on these days, give thanks for the 2nd amendment.

Make very sure you are prepared to use it, if need be!

amerigirl

Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

KK153

Lots of out of state plates in P Ville yesterday

Guest

I noticed that as well.

ace10

Yup. And the very strong odor of astroturf.

Guest

Ahh...that was astroturf....I was convinced it was a mixture of the smell of newly purchased Birkenstocks and the heavy scent of patchouli.

hardworkingamerican

Randall needs to be removed from her position immediately. She is supporting hate and divisiveness and is a liberal threat to all those in America. As pointed out by the sane people here the only thing this has done is destroy more Black American lives and businesses and murdered more innocent Black Americans. Good for those who stand up for your rights. Remember "Coonman" is the leader of those that have shown racism through-out their lives. "Coonman" should step down as should all liberal elected and appointed people who have run these cities and inner cities into the ground with the cry of "I'll protect you". RIGHT!! Again if you want to protest in the right areas then go to the home of Kaine, Warner, Wexton, Randall, Bell, Northam, Pelosi, Schumer and the list goes on. Furthermore, why don't you take a good hard look at who fell victim to the actions of George Floyd. Breaking into a home and pointing a gun at the belly of a pregnant woman? What the hell. Oh yes that's right, liberals cheer the death of babies in the womb. The truth hurts, but then the truth was never one of the liberals strong points. Only lies, cover-ups and made up stories just like the "hands up don't shoot" lie in Ferguson. Despite Obama's lie of "you didn't build that" yes we did. On our blood sweat and tears. On our lives. Freedom comes at a price and we have shed our most precious blood in the name of freedom for all. TIME TO WAKE UP PEOPLE. Liberal social communists have hijacked the so called "Democrap" party. They call for our President's demise everyday and are cheered for it. They call to lead to slaughter anyone who would stand up to defend themselves from attacks. Strip you of police protection, strip you of your right to protect yourself, then strip you of all your money. AGAIN, Donald J Trump has done more for ALL AMERICANS, especially Black Americans than any other President in history. You want to change America and stop this crap. VOTE ALL LIBERALS OUT OF OFFICE!!

amerigirl

Hardracist, what petition are you talking about? rant, rant rant and some more rants with a racist bias, then more rant. As far as your conspiracy theory about the gun on a pregnant woman what? Floyd had served time in prison for aggravated robbery, what does that have to do with a cop killing him? Are you trying to justify his murder? There is no way that the cop cold have known that when he stopped him. IME FOR YOU TO WAKE UP, they are the same abortion laws that they have had in Virginia for decades with the exception of the short time when a sonogram was required and they changed the parameters for the buildings they were performed in. Stop lying about it, look it up. Bunker boy had destroyed this country, ask the generals.

ace10

Rename Washington D.C Now! Burn Mt Vernon. Tear down any statues or monuments of the 1st President. Rename JMU. Rename TJ High School. Also burn Monticello to the ground. Rename Franklin County, VA. Actually, gotta rename ALL 23 (Benjamin) Franklin counties in USA. Strike down all decisions handed down by John Jay. John Adams... he's gotta go, too. Library of Congress and Harvard better get working on wiping his name of their buildings post haste.

C'mon people.... There's revolution in the wind. Slave owners have to go. Let's do this!!!!

Freedom

Violence is wrong ! Some of the places you mentioned are owned privately - General Sherman should be dishonorably discharged for crimes against citizens- he burned property even property of people that supported the anti-slave movement of which several hundred thousand Americans died for - burning is a war crime period so is collective punishments

Voltaire

Freedom--I think that your point about Sherman is flawed. Sherman followed a "scorched earth" policy, destroying military targets as well as industry, infrastructure, and civilian property, disrupting the Confederacy's economy and transportation networks. The operation broke the back of the Confederacy and helped lead to its eventual surrender. Sherman's bold move of operating deep within enemy territory and without supply lines is considered to be one of the major achievements of the war and is also considered to be an early example of modern total war. Based on this information, Sherman shouldn't be dishonorably discharged posthumously.

Freedom

Your right we as Americans should disregard the war crimes against civilians - what your proposing is anyone and every one in those states guilty by living there and should be burned - thats collective punishment - some were innocent who were burned - violence against any civilian is wrong sorry -

Voltaire

Freedom--no, what I am saying is that Sherman did what he did in order to disrupt the Confederacy's economic and transportation networks. That's a military tactic, not a "collective punishment" and it was effective.

romano

good luck with that

Guest

I forgive you, Ace

Guest

Why don't the "progressive" folks in the crowd or the media hold the Democratic party accountable for the misery in our inner cities? Someone else already mentioned that they have run these cities from top to bottom for many decades. Their rules, their police departments, their failure to deliver for their constituents.

Enough is enough.

romano

they will never attempt to address that great question nor the data that debunks their claims of racial disparities in police shootings. They can't!

Freedom

Yes they are part of the problem any political party that interferes with the people’s rights are. Think hard about the laws written most of the laws in states one way or the other are written to demean people’s rights to interact with each other and make police their pincushion - demand demand demand accountability on laws that turn Americans against each other - Look at England when we were trying to get away from those tyrants (and they still are ) when we got help from the native Americans- they called all of us here savages and savages lovers. The enslaved and sold Africans and , Irish , they stepped up. Their battle in Belfast for years oppression was the norm. Good people had a record for fighting for their rights - think real hard can you blame people

For the rising up now ? It’s the very ones who they think are looking out for them who derive laws that oppress - optics aside any protest for freedom is worthy - violence isn’t - make no mistake the

Political machine wants votes then they will oppress all of us - free the oppressed ( term limits in all politics ) state , federal , local term limits free the oppressed !

Voltaire

Freedom--first the British are not "tyrants" and in fact are friends of the USA. They had a "special relationship" for quite a while. Second, you claim that the Irish "stepped up" during the Battle of Belfast. So, you support the Irish Republican Army's efforts to undermine the lawful authorities (the Royal Army) in Belfast? That's what that was. The IRA is a known terrorist organization but that's okay because they are "good people"? Really? Yet, in the same argument you claim that violence is not acceptable but condone groups that are known terrorists.

freedom

I'm wondering where I said I condone IRA violence the fact of the matter is people need to pay attention to the laws -- England is a tyrant and will ever be one, they have oppressed their people economically since their existence

Voltaire

Freedom, wow. You do know that the USA was colony of the British Empire and was subject to the British Crown until the Revolutionary War? Then are you saying that everywhere that the British settled would also be "tyrannical" since these colonies, including the USA acquired a good bit of its foundation from the British Empire? That premise is not supportable and is flawed.

Freedom

England oppressed stole , shipped slaves , African and Irish , establishing , a suitable means of extortion for them against Americans , we had enough And took care of it - don’t forget England’s burnings

Voltaire

Freedom--no, that argument isn't going to cut the mustard here. If you are going to blame the British, then you should also blame other major actors in Europe such as the Netherlands (Dutch) as they were involved in it as well. How did "we take care of it"? You mean the Revolutionary War? That war had a little more dynamics to it then what you are portraying.

ace10

Most liberals believe that "plantation politics" is a myth.

Along the same lines, when the presumed (D) nominee for POTUS makes a statement such as this: "Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black,” then you know there is a serious race problem in the (D) party. It's so sick and so twisted that it defies rational explanation.

Freedom

In Biden’s case that was the most racist remark I’ve ever heard - one of those hair plugs that didn’t work must have caused a miswire

scottva

Because they only live for the progressive action in a moment in time. When crime goes off the charts, they will spin it around that it is the white Republicans fault and we need progressive change, in the other way.

Virginia SGP

As an aside, BLM and these radical, lily-white Leftists often say there is no justice because officers escape jail time. Yet, in most of these cases, there was financial punishment. Eric Garner's family received $6M despite the police officers being acquitted under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

Philando Castile's family received a $3M settlement.

Money does not bring back a life. However, money is a symbol that their lives were meaningful and there was wrongdoing. It also incentivizes the police departments to change policies.

So while there may not have been the justice some wanted, their lives did matter and the families received some justice for the violations.

LawManSupport

Those cops violated the fourth amendment when they killed the individuals you mentioned. That’s why they were found liable for those sums. But guess who picked up the bill? Taxpayers. Insurance funds financed by taxpayer dollars. And those cops will still collect those beautiful pension benefits the rest of their lives. Gimme a break.

Virginia SGP

Huh? That's the way it works. When individuals are harmed by the state (people), the state (people) should compensate them. Folks won't stand by if officials waste money because they allow negligence.

The officer responsible for Eric Garner's death was fired. If you are fired before you are vested for retirement, you do not receive retirement. Do you get the facts before any of the statements you make?

But you are wrong about whether they were liable. The police dept is NOT liable right now unless the victim can show it was their policy that caused the violation (these chokeholds were supposedly not allowed by policy). The victim can sue the officer, but unless a previous case has been decided that rules the conduct is illegal, the officer gers qualified immunity. See my post below.

There are changes that need to be made. Learn about them.

amerigirl

That police dept is being sued by the state.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--the standard you are identifying is applicable for wrongful death actions. The State of Minnesota is suing the Minneapolis Police Department in civil court on civil rights violations and that is a totally different standard.

Virginia SGP

Voltaire, why is the state suing the locality? States can put in any laws they want including revoking sovereign immunity. But they don't have to do so. It would be hard to tell without seeing Minnesota's code.

As for federal civil suits under 42 USC 1983, localities don't have sovereign immunity but they cannot be held liable for damages unless it was their official policy.

amerigirl

The state of Minnesota filed a human rights complaint Tuesday, June 2 against the Minneapolis Police Department. They have been sued before fir discrimination, included in the suit was their own Police chief, and lost.

Voltaire

LawManSupport---the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is for "...The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." It has nothing to do with wrongful deaths by police officers. However, you are correct that many local governments have set up a general reserve fund and/or have insurance coverage to deal with litigation against the local government for these types of events. Where you are wrong is that the implicated officers, if the charges are substantiated during an internal/external review, will be fired and lose his/her benefits accordingly.

Radical Right

You have truly painted yourself into the corner with that comment.

Guest

You said it right lol.. All these victims received justice. However, did you think about why these people need to die in the first place? Police brutality and racism is not as Trump would say fake news. How about you find a love one killed by police. How much shall I own ya?

Virginia SGP

So what should folks be doing? Take a look at proposed legislation by Kamala Harris and Corey Booker. While one may not agree with all of it, there are a lot of very constructive ideas including the end of chokeholds.

It also addresses some legal loopholes including "qualified immunity". Qualified immunity prevents victims from holding individual gov't actors accountable if the violation was not "clearly established" as wrong in prior court cases. The big problem here is a judge can say a violation was not clearly established and let the official off but NOT EVEN RULE THE ACT was a violation to prevent future instances of the misconduct! A big case is the Lyons vs Los Angeles case where the court didn't even ban chokeholds in the LAPD because the judges said the plaintiff lacked "standing" (that there was an ongoing controversy) because it was unlikely the individual plaintiff would break the law again and potentially be exposed to a chokehold. They wouldn't rule chokeholds legal or illegal. As I recall, the LAPD wanted the issue settled one way or the other as well.

I had a similar experience (although obviously not nearly on these scales nor dangerous) in my federal case against Commonwealth Attorney Plowman. Plowman changed course and begged to dismiss the case because he would never do it again. But he could have been liable for obvious censorship. The judge ruled that the violation was not "clearly established" and then refused to determine whether the action would have been a violation. The effect is that it gives the next corrupt official a "one time free use" of the violation without any liability.

The law also needs to be changed to hold gov'ts accountable for the actions of their employees unless they can demonstrate they took efforts to train them on that issue. Currently, unless a plaintiff can show a violation was the policy of the department (that putting a knee on the neck was a policy of Minneapolis), the plaintiff has no recourse against the city. It should be the reverse. Unless Minneapolis can show it trained police officers specifically NOT to do what the officer in the Floyd case did (and he did it anyway in opposition to the training), the gov't should be accountable.

This moves the accountability from the individual officer up the chain of command to those leading the organizations. More training will occur because their budgets will be impacted if they do not. And on an "equity" basis, providing financial compensation to anybody who suffers from these violations is the right thing to do.

Folks should learn what actually can be done instead of chasing foolish notions like "defund the police". That would be constructive instead of the virtue-signalling marches.

Freedom

Then you must agree in the ffx county case the board of supervisors who approved the tasers should step down along with the chief of police

Virginia SGP

I haven't seen the video on that one. Tasers are a non-lethal method of overcoming resistance. I am not knowledgeable on how/when they should be used but I understand they are a valuable tool for police and prevent more severe injuries in suspects.

There are legal processes to figure this stuff out. I would support some national policies (which can be enforced by tying federal $$ to compliance) devised by experts from all sides. I do not know what the exact outcome should be though.

ace10

"Tasers" are often incorrectly referred to as "non-lethal" force. "Less-lethal" is the proper term. Subjects are killed by them, usually due to underlying health issues. Other problems include a poor reliability and when improperly carried by a LEO(or poorly trained), there are instances where a firearm is used when the intent was to fire the less-lethal weapon. Heavy or loose clothing can defeat a taser. As can very high levels of intoxicants.

They're far from perfect.

Freedom

When the nature of the alleged crime Is called in then the various department handles it . Ferguson for instance let’s say they had a neighborhood program where the neighborhood police officer could go see the kid and get it worked out . Instead barney fife shows up and the young man is dead - premise premise

Voltaire

Freedom--there is ZERO correlation between the incident in Ferguson, MO and what occurred in Fairfax County VA. None. Also, the claim being made that the Ferguson Police Department should have implemented a Community Policing program that would have effectively solved the situation is also an unsubstantiated premise. Community policing is an effective tool when implemented in communities but there is zero evidence that this policy would have solved the problem in Ferguson, MO.

Freedom

I agree with ace on the taser - a domestic division within the police force in ffx would have been better then Barney fife firing off a taser

Voltaire

Freedom--first, if the officer is properly trained in the use of a TASER, they are effective. Second, your comment about the establishment of a "a domestic division within the police force in ffx would have been better then Barney fife firing off a taser" is wrong on multiple levels. The Fairfax County Police Department is the domestic police organization for Fairfax County. Individual towns/cities, as Virginia is a Commonwealth, are policed by their own police forces. There is no such concept as you describe. That is real-world reality, not fantasy land.

Voltaire

No, the Chief of Police for Fairfax County is handling the issue competently so there is no need for dismissal. The use of a TASER, if used properly, is an effective non-lethal tool for police to use to subdue a suspect.

Freedom

The chief is a Sell out half foot in half foot out - then sells his officer out - leadership would have been to not have the taser - and cases like this extra caution - he basically says use the taser then don’t use the taser to save his own lame butt. He should resign they call it lack of leadership in the army .

Voltaire

Freedom--no, the chief is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. There is an internal inquiry being done by Internal Affairs Bureau of the Fairfax County Police Department (FCPD). The FCPD has a field manual that outlines when the use of a TASER is appropriate and when it is not. If the officer didn't follow the manual, then that will be result of the inquiry and the officer can be sanctioned with criminal charges, which the Fairfax County Commonwealth Attorney is looking into, and be dismissed for failure to follow the manual. Pretty straightforward.

Freedom

I feel like this a scene from my cousin vinny when

The judge says to joe Pesci “ no I don’t think you understand “ note : the national guard did not weaponize in dc - that was leadership so case point with chief Barney fife in ffx -

Voltaire

Again, your premise is flawed. How does the role of the DC National Guard play a role in your argument that the Chief of Police in Fairfax County (located in the Commonwealth, not the District of Columbia) be removed for following local department procedures concerning the use of TASERs? The answer is that it doesn't but you are engaging a diversionary tactic because you cannot refute my point. This makes, based on my count, approximately the third attempt to try that tactic and this time, like the previous two, it fails as well. Barney Fife was a Deputy Sheriff in Mayberry, North Carolina in a TV series. He was not a police chief or sheriff as that was Andy Taylor. Again, this premise is flawed too. Checkmate.

Freedom

Yes there is correlation both should have been handled by a domestic department of the police - instead barney fife rides again

Voltaire

Freedom--no, there is no correlation between them. The National Guard does not handle domestic policing. They are called in for emergency situations. Why are you so obsessed with Barney Fife, anyways?

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--the concept of qualified immunity isn't a law. No federal statute explicitly grants qualified immunity—qualified immunity is a judicial precedent established by the Supreme Court. Why does the precedent need to change? Qualified immunity protects a government official from lawsuits alleging that the official violated a plaintiff's rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right. When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” the courts can consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights. Courts conducting this analysis apply the law that was in force at the time of the alleged violation, not the law in effect when the court considers the case. Your scenario involving Minneapolis is correct, if the plaintiff can't show that policy was counter to the Minneapolis Police Department, then there shouldn't be a civil action against the city, as the city, including the Police Department, met its obligations. Further, qualified immunity is not immunity from having to pay money damages, but rather immunity from having to go through the costs of a trial at all. Accordingly, courts can resolve qualified immunity issues as early in a case as possible, preferably before discovery.

Qualified immunity only applies to suits against government officials as individuals, not suits against the government for damages caused by the officials’ actions. Although qualified immunity frequently appears in cases involving police officers, it also applies to most other executive branch officials. While judges, prosecutors, legislators, and some other government officials do not receive qualified immunity, most are protected by other immunity doctrines.

There is no correlation that there will be an increase in training due to changes in the qualified immunity precedent as local governments typically have either insurance or general reserve funds to cover the costs of litigation. Those funds don't come out of individual government agencies' budgets and therefore doesn't impact them.

Virginia SGP

Voltaire, we agree on what qualified immunity is. But we disagree on whether it should be changed and how those changes may affect outcomes.

1. 42 USC 1983 allows individuals to sue the gov't. Otherwise, sovereign immunity would apply. You actually cannot sue a state for damages. An interpretation of 1983 law allowed state officials to be considered individuals and thus sued for damages. But you still cannot sue a state dept (e.g. state police) for monetary damages. Congress can change the law. That would override the judicial preceent created qualified immunity. So it is truly up to Congress to potentially change teh law. Note that SCOTUS is actually hearing a qualified immunity case this term and may make changes on its own.

2. When first created, the judge had to make 2 determinations. First, whether a right was violated. Second, whether it was clearly established. It wasn't until later that SCOTUS ruled you need not determine whether a right was violated but only whether it was clearly established before dismissing a case. While the motivation was to prevent frivolous lawsuits against officials (since a violation often was based on facts and required discovery, if not a full trial to determine), it has resulted in damaging effects. If there is not ruling that a chokehold violates the 4th Amd, judges can literally dismiss a case where a cop illegally choked a suspect because it was not "clearly established" WITHOUT ruling the chokehold was illegal. Thus, the next cop that chokes a suspect can get off without any monetary damages. And on and on and on. That is clearly a horrific outcome. The judge can, and sometimes do, rule that a violation occurred but grant qualified immunity. The next official to conduct that same violation then cannot get off. This should be the standard in my opinion.

3. I don't actually agree with the extent to which changes in qualified immunity is proposed. Many are saying that even if an official thought an action was reasonable (e.g. banning a person who got in a fistfight at a public gov't meeting from future meetings), no qualified immunity would exist. Thus, upon determination that the action was illegal (you cannot indefinitely ban somebody from public meetings even if they had prior criminal behavior at those meetings), the official would be subject to damages. That's not right either.

4. One can recover damages from the government (at the local level) for those violations ONLY IF the actions were the official policy of the gov't. So if the gov't refuses to issue a same sex marriage license by policy, it can be held financially liable for its officials doing so even if such actions were not previously considered a violation. Congress can make changes to this doctrine as well if they choose.

And yes, large payouts cause change in gov't policy. Even if an insurance fund pays (e.g. Virginia Assoc of Counties fund), the payments are passed on to the gov't entites in future premiums. So yes, there will be accountability. If LoCo premiums are 2x as much as Roanoke because of bad behavior, voters can take action.

We may disagree on what changes are needed, but orgs and elected officials across the spectrum believe qualified immunity should be changed. It will be interesting to see the final result.

Guest

RoundHillGuy if you are looking for racism you should start with the mirror. This protest was organized by young black and white men working together. If all your friends are in Sterling why did you move to Round Hill.

Freedom

All who attended any of the protests should quarantine or get a covid19 test - also in this county walk up testing needs to be done 20164 area -

Voltaire

Freedom--It is the responsibility of the state/local government to determine where, what type, and frequency of testing is required for a particular area. If you have concerns, then you should speak with Dr. Oliver, the State Health Commissioner and/or the Loudoun County Department of Health on the subject as they would the authorities to talk with.

Freedom

Actually Virginia law it is the citizens responsibility to report symptoms-

Voltaire

Freedom--that is clearly wrong. Individuals do not report symptoms to the Virginia Department of Health (VDH) or the Loudoun County Department of Health. Individuals may report symptoms to a health care provider who will then report through the health care system and that data will reach the VDH.

scottva

According to the WHO, asymptomatic rarely if ever transmit COVID.

Freedom

This morning who contradicts themselves and said the opposite -

RoundHillGuy

You always know when you win an argument with a liberal because they revert to calling you racists. Again this was nothing more that white suburbanites who wanted to post woke pics to facebook and IG. THATS ALL.

Guest

You can be a racist and loose an argument at the same. You present the perfect case study

Virginia SGP

I didn't realize arguments were "loose". But I see you cannot find a single fact to support your claim. By definition, you "lost".

Guest

And by definition, you continue to post racist rants. We all lose

Virginia SGP

Oh "Guest", cannot find a single fact to support any of your claims. Does calling others false names make you feel better about your ignorance?

Guest

I forgive you, Brian

Virginia SGP

And "Guest" has still not found any logic or facts to support any of her outrageous claims. Or refute ... pretty much anything. No facts, no logic, .... something tells me that Guest must be a teacher!

Freedom

Change and widen the Miranda rights - all accused should have lawyer present - the police should only gather information and evidence . Change the premise you will change the problem - we need police for protection , the issue is the “ premise “ and it currently harms all of us .

Virginia SGP

So let me get this straight. Are you saying before a police officer can arrest a person, even one committing a dangerous felony, they must arrange for a lawyer to be present on site or let them go? At 1am on Saturday morning?

You all have completely lost your minds.

Freedom

So you understand the police can apprehend under suspicion of a crime but should not be the ones to charge - change the premise widen the Miranda rights

Voltaire

No, there is no need to change something that meets the legal standards outlined in Miranda v Arizona (1966). That approach is wrong.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--I don't believe that is the premise. You don't need a lawyer until law enforcement determines that an arrest is warranted. At that point, police will cite Miranda and then you can ask for a lawyer.

Virginia SGP

I am not following. An officer may need to detain someone on probably cause for a crime. That includes taking them to jail. The officer cannot arrest someone unless there is a valid crime under which he/she had probable cause.

I thought the district attorneys "charged" suspects with crimes but I may be missing something.

I just don't understand the substance of this change and why it would help anyone.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--there are only a very limited number of circumstances in which an officer may make an arrest:

The officer personally observed a crime;

The officer has probable cause to believe that person arrested committed a crime;

The officer has an arrest warrant issued by a judge.

An officer cannot arrest someone just because she feels like it or has a hunch that someone might be a criminal. Police officers have to be able to justify the arrest usually by showing some tangible evidence that led them to probable cause.

Police also do not have to read Miranda Rights at the time of arrest. However, the police must read a suspect their rights before an interrogation, so many police departments recommend that Miranda Rights be read at the time of arrest. This way, they can start questioning right away, and any information volunteered by a suspect can be used against them.

Virginia SGP

Voltaire, I am still not following.

If the police interrogate a suspect before making an arrest, that testimony is not admissible, correct?

If the police arrest someone, they need an underlying crime and probable cause it occurred, but they don't technically charge the suspect, correct?

If the police arrest somebody, as you noted, they need not give Miranda rights.

So I don't follow what reforms of Miranda are being proposed? Whether probable cause existed (to determine whether it was an improper arrest) is a legal judgment based on the objectively reasonable standard as I recall. Thus, you cannot be saved for an improper arrest by adding another separate violation 3 days later that was not stated at the time of the arrest.

Could somebody explain what Miranda reforms are proposed and their effects? Or maybe it is not relevant.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--if the police interrogate a suspect without reading him/her the Miranda warning, the whatever testimony will not be admissible in court. Yes, if the police arrest someone, they need an underlying crime and probable cause it occurred. The police conduct the arrest and generate a police report that follows. The prosecutor then reads the police report and decides whether or not the person who's been arrested should be charged with a crime. Alternatively, the prosecutor can go to a grand jury and ask them to decide what criminal charges should be filed (called an indictment). Typically, when the police arrest somebody, as you noted, they need not give Miranda rights but they do anyway to avoid legal problems when the case goes to the prosecutor. I believe that the reforms that are being advocated by a poster on this site is the application, incorrect in my opinion, of Miranda throughout the process and having the defense counsel involved throughout the process.

Could somebody explain what Miranda reforms are proposed and their effects? Or maybe it is not relevant.

pual mase

Freedom, let’s also have the cops have their lawyers present and instruct the criminals to just gather evidence that their crimes is justified by inequality............sounds like a liberal utopia. How exactly does your naive proposal protect the public and get criminals off the streets?

How is the public protected i

Freedom

Read up on the current procedure police charge - certainly police can arrest under suspicion and then the accused state provided lawyer and the magistrate can agree on a charge - but the police should not be charging - expand the Miranda rights less cases in court then the premise changes -

Voltaire

Freedom--that's not right. Police can certainly arrest an individual under a suspicion charge, as specified in the criminal code, and then, based upon additional evidence, amend the charge to the actual charge. That is standard police procedure and the police consult with the appropriate prosecutor. The accused individual's counsel doesn't have anything to do with determination as to what criminal element occurs. The prosecutor does that. The individual's attorney may get involved if there is a plea bargain and that bargain goes in front of a judge, who is different than a magistrate. There is no need to change/expand the Miranda process as that process meets the requirements identified in Miranda v Arizona that the Supreme Court heard/decided in 1966.

Freedom

The courts and lawyers are complicit they have pinned down and jails prisons are big business for some , once in the system it’s likely you will be a repeat offender - change the premise and change will occur - this will give more time for police to protect and

Serve

scottva

So this change would prevent criminals from being repeat offenders? There are certainly areas of improvement but I cannot see how this is even plausible

Freedom

Premise is a two way street with the premise changes with police - it implicit upon community leaders to stop crime - drugs , gangs , etc given the premise of what I speak and changes in the Miranda - along with it comes civic duty and leadership -

Voltaire

Freedom--it is the job of law enforcement to stop crime as that is the function of law enforcement. Community leaders can support the police in that task. You are advocating vigilantism ("...it is implicit for community leaders to stop crime...") That is not right either. How are community leaders supposed to combat gangs? heavily armed drug syndicates? The answer is that they can't and should help law enforcement. Again, for the umpteenth time, there is no need to change Miranda as the current administration of it is sufficient and in accordance with the U.S. Supreme Court precedence case (Miranda v. Arizona (1966)). Final item, how does the expansion of the administration of the Miranda link up with "civic duty and leadership"? The answer is that it does link up at all. Good grief.

Freedom

It takes a collective effort to help lift up decades of oppression thanks - think deep

Freedom

With respect to Miranda rights a advocate for the accused should be there before the actual filed charges are decided - a deliberation between a magistrate and advocate takes place at which point a charge of any can be placed - non emergency cases a warrant should have a advocate as well - prior to a warrant being issued - that’s widening the Miranda

Voltaire

Freedom--this is wrong. There is nothing wrong with the current way that the police administer the Miranda warning. The prosecutor has the authority, based upon the evidence presented to him/her to charge the suspect with the appropriate criminal infraction/infractions. There is no deliberation between the trial judge, not a magistrate, and the lawyers. An advocate, in the U.S. criminal system, is totally different concept from that of a lawyer. The defense counsel doesn't get involved with the State's Attorney until the discussions surrounding any possible plea bargain.

The defense counsel has nothing to do with the prosecutor charging the defendant. At interrogation, the defense counsel, if requested by the defendant, provides advice on what types of questions that the defendant can/should answer and makes sure that the defendant's rights are protected. Concerning warrants, the prosecutor is responsible for the warrant preparation and, if a grand jury is used, the presentation of the case so that the grand jury can issue said warrant. There is no such concept in American jurisprudence of a "warrant advocate". It simply doesn't exist and isn't warranted. Period.

Voltaire

Freedom--your concept of what law enforcement is lacking. Law enforcement is there to enforce the law, and that task involves more than just evidence gathering and information. There is no need to change that premise as that premise is pretty standard and is common worldwide. There is also no need to change the Miranda rights. If a deputy/officer places you under arrest and takes you into custody, the suspect is allowed to have a lawyer present, he/she just needs to ask for one. That applies to all accused who are taken into custody and/or during interrogation.

Freedom

Well , well now the discussion begins think real hard on “ premise “ in the old old days no charges were filed by sheriffs until a judge read the facts and heard from both parties - often times the issues were solved right then and there - law and violation of our rights have been capitalized into big business - most police would agree but they are required by “ premise “ to arrest I agree some cases need to be tried most of the civic torts should not be criminal - our freedoms have been abused - by laws ( more laws less just justice ) tell me who said that

Voltaire

Freedom--I don't have to think real hard as the my basic premise holds. Police are responsible for the enforcement of law and the investigation of crimes. They, with proper consultation from the responsible prosecution office (District Attorney/Commonwealth Attorney/State's Attorney/Attorney General), arrest and charge an individual for a crime. Judges, unless requested by a party for a trial by judge, are not the arbiters of guilt or innocence, a jury is for criminal cases. That's basic criminal law. Civil torts aren't tried in criminal court but civil court. Civil torts are not part of the criminal code. That is basic law.

Freedom

Premise premise premise ! Free the people WE THE PEOPLE there is a reason why it was written large and bold - not we the politicians who oppress all - and tilt towards no freedoms at all

Virginia SGP

I do agree with you on stringing umpteen charges for the same act. Many violations are just another way of describing similar behavior to prevent a criminal from getting away because of a technicality. But they compound charges for essentially the same conduct. Defendants should be charged with the most appropriate charge (possibly the highest) but they shouldn't be allowed to have simultaneously convictions. So either 2nd degree murder or aggravated assault but not both.

If criminals perform a series of crimes (steal car, crash into pedestrian, assault police), those are separate acts. But a single act shouldn't result in a long list of charges.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--the charges that the State charges is based on prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors can look at all the circumstances of a case, including the suspect’s past criminal record, in deciding whether and what to charge. Prosecutors can file charges on all crimes for which the police arrested a suspect, can file charges that are more or less severe than the charges leveled by the police, or can decide not to file any charges at all. (U.S. v. Batchelder, U.S. Sup. Ct. 1979.)

Virginia SGP

Voltaire, I don't follow once again.

I am not describing the law (including case law) as it exists today. I am saying that prosecutors should not be able to string multiple charges for the same act to pressure a suspect to take a plea deal. Prosecutors are notorious for trying to get enormous sentences such that while the prosecutor is unlikely to win, if he does, the sentence is so overwhelming that suspects plead guilty to avoid a catastrophic sentence. There is a lot of research in this area.

Once again, Congress can change the rules if they want by withholding funding unless such changes are made. I am not saying that prosecutors couldn't make an independent determination of what charges are filed, but rather there are limits on what can be charged for any given act.

Voltaire

Virginia SGP--the choice of how a prosecutor charges an individual is the discretion of the prosecutor and the prosecutor alone. That is the legal precedent as it exists now and the way that it should be. The use of this approach for plea bargains is also an acceptable practice. Most criminal cases are settled through the plea bargain process. It clears up the backlog in the court system thereby allowing the courts to focus on more bigger trials/matters. Given that the court system for the majority of criminal matters is handled primarily by the States and are funded through state revenues, Congress really doesn't have properly standing to say how state court systems operate. They may have jurisdiction over the Federal system. However, it is not likely that there will be any changes in the way prosecutors file charges in the Federal system either as they have "prosecutor discretion" as well.

Freedom

More law, less justice. Cicero: Cicero De Officiis I.10.33: Justice: Minus solum, quam cum solus esset. Never less alone than when alone. Cicero: Cicero De Officiis III.1: Loneliness: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. All Gaul is divided into three parts. Julius Caesar: Julius Caesar, De bello Gallico, 1.1.1:

Virginia SGP

Voltaire, I am not disagreeing with you on jurisdiction. But the feds figured out a great way to extract leverge over states. Take Title 7, or Title 9 or the ESSA education act. If you accept federal funds, you agree to comply with those rules and be subject to suit if you violate them.

Thus, federal laws that restrict state behavior is often accomplished by tying funds to it. States need not accept the restrictions but they have to avoid the money too. Very few, if any, will do that.

While plea bargains have a role, charge stacking to get a suspect to plead guilty for fear of the worst-case outcome (getting convicted while being innocent and having a huge sentence) is also common. Look at Flynn. They leaned on him to plead guilty by threatening to prosecute his kid. There is definitely bad behavior in the system.

I'm saying rather than focus on all the useless marches, let's fix the problems. I agree with many of the SCOTUS justices that you shouldn't have double jeopardy by being charged with a fed and state crime for the same action either. By not focusing on the real problems, I fear we will have to correct them later.

Voltaire

Freedom--relevance? How are these various citations relevant to the conversation?

(More law, less justice. Cicero: Cicero De Officiis I.10.33: Justice: Minus solum, quam cum solus esset. Never less alone than when alone. Cicero: Cicero De Officiis III.1: Loneliness: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. All Gaul is divided into three parts. Julius Caesar: Julius Caesar, De bello Gallico, 1.1.1) The answer is that they are not but make a good diversion from answering the challenge about the logic of your premise......

Freedom

Advocacy for the accused , one sided now lower cases , community police , domestic divisions , outreach programs- dethrone the politics of oppression , lift each up America !

Voltaire

Freedom--under the current system, the Miranda process works and suspects can have lawyers provided to them if they request them once they are charged with an offense. The police will charge suspects once they have sufficient evidence and will collaborate with prosecutors before making charges. No, the "premise" is right and does not need changing.

Freedom

Hundreds of not thousands have been jailed when innocent with the current view of Miranda and no advocate for the accused - ( case point the planted oj glove if it doesn’t fit you must acquit )

Voltaire

Freedom--OJ Simpson had more than enough legal counsel to cover his criminal trial so I wouldn't use him as an example for your "premise".

Voltaire

Freedom--I am going to paraphrase the objection that would be raised in a court of law. This argument has been asked and answered. Objection sustained.

scottva

Exactly, that's feasible. Will the lawyer be joined at the him with the investigators as well? You cop and pasted this and did not put any thought of your own into this before posting. This is so absurd, i can't waste one more key stroke to explain why and if you have to ask why, then wow is all I can say.

Freedom

I didn’t cut and paste anything and no the advocate for the accused is present only when the warrant is asked for prior to the judge hearing it and before the accused is charged - no these are my thoughts police would enforce not actually charge - the domestic police division is for cases that really don’t merit tying up police working on serious cases - pay attention learn something

Voltaire

Freedom--your statements are wrong. The defense counsel (advocate for the accused) is not present when the warrant is asked for. For example, if the prosecutor takes a case to a sworn Grand Jury, there is no defense counsel there to provide anything. There is no such concept in global policing called "the domestic police division". The police is one department and they have specialty units to handle speciality crimes but they are ONE department not two. The closest thing that I could find was the concept of British Intelligence (MI-5/MI-6) One of those units is for domestic intelligence and the other is for foreign intelligence. Note, though that is the intelligence service, not the police service.

Guest

The Democratic party has ruled the roost in many of these urban areas for generations. What they have created are zones of high crime, poor economic outcomes, poor education, and no accountability. Why on earth would you support bringing that "leadership" here? The Democratic party built the Jim Crow system, installed the Klan as their armed wing (no supplanted by Antifa), enslaved entire generations of people to government handouts and a regime of low expectations. Now they are just finishing the job in the guise of friendship to those they have quite effectively manipulated and disenfranchised. This is just act II of their ploy to create a permanent underclass dependent on government largesse in exchange for votes.

Shame on you.

RoundHillGuy

this was a photo opportunity for liberal white soccer moms to show how woke they are from the safety of the whitest community in Loudoun. I still remember how all the original white families quietly left Sterling in droves when it started turning Latino. So don't preach to me. I stayed another 20 years with my new neighbors before migrating to the Country side.

Loudoun4Trump

Glad to see a very peaceful protest and people getting their voice heard....probably should have had a better picture to convince me there were a 1,000 people there, but glad to see it....unfortunately racism has been around for 1000s of years, is with us today, and will be with us for 1000s more years....what I cant figure out is that DC spends more per kid on education than anyone in the US, but many kids at these schools either drop out or cant even read by the time they graduate....someone needs to revamp the education systems in the liberal democrat controlled cities, that would probably be the best way to reduce racism since kids may get a decent education....sadly, something missing in the african american communities of today...the big city educators let their kids down every day.....not sure how to dismantle that mess and rebuild it

Duncan Idaho

Don't worry, Bunker Boy has it covered: "By the way, they love African-American people. They love black people. MAGA loves the black people."

debbbie

African Americans are twice as likely to be killed by police than whites. It is the proportion of blacks being killed by police that stands out. When it comes to shooting unarmed people by police, the proportion is much worse. Including taser events- For example, take a look at the most recent taser event by a Fairfax County officer against a black man that was not a threat and was unarmed.

There are countless studies and evidence showing blacks are treated much more harshly by police and the criminal justice system. These studies look at countless disproportionate cases of traffic stops for contraband, illegal drugs, petty events (i.e. car tailight out) etc. that blacks are much much more likely to be treated more harshly than whites. Another example, although evidence is clear that whites use and sell drugs at the same rate as blacks, the consequences for blacks are usually much more severe. Another study- 3/4 of black parents have cautioned their children to be cautious around police while only 1/3 of whites have. These parents have experienced many personal and know others who have experienced dissimilar treatment from police and/or the justice system. Studies have shown when blacks are killed by police that 7/10 white police officers believe it was just an isolated "killing," while black police officers believe it is a part of a systematic problem. A YouGov study found that black people are MORE worried about being traumatized by police violence than they are of a violent crime. There are many many facts and studies clearly supporting this which I can go on and on... The point is there is a large segment of the U.S. population (real people), that clearly feel isolated and mistreated by an unjust system. Those who deny or distract from this are part of the problem. The final point and the most important point, is once you have a large segment of the population being isolated, then it leads to division, conflict, and direct harm to all people of the U.S. Recognizing it, is just the beginning. Finally, Black Lives Matter does not say All Lives don't Matter, or White Lives don't Matter, or Blue Lives don't Matter, the intent of the statement is a laser focus that Black Lives Matter, TOO (just as much as non-blacks).

Freedom

In ffx that was wrong yes , but also target those who approved the taser. The politicians who allowed a weapon to be purchased. No amount of training can repair or change a premise. Allow for Miranda rights to be widened and all accused have a lawyer present. Police should not make charges that should be debated with the commonwealth and the appointed lawyer at the time of arrest . Police should gather facts and thus leave without the premise that a arrest is needed or warranted . Protection yes but make

No mistake the premise of the purchase approved tasers are the fault of ffx county board.

Voltaire

Freedom--no, that isn't right. First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the use of a TASER. The TASER is an effective non-lethal tool that police can use, provided that they are sufficiently trained, to subdue hostile suspects. If they don't have this instrument, then they are left with only the following: (1) flashlight; (2) police baton; (3) service weapon, to subdue the suspect. As for Miranda rights, that is wrong in that the police/sheriff will cite Miranda only when they determine that an arrest is warranted. At that point, the suspect may (and oftentimes should) request for legal counsel. There is no debate between police and the Commonwealth attorney on charges at the time of arrest. Often, the police will consult with the Commonwealth attorney and the prosecutor will confirm the charges and allow the officer to arrest. Law enforcement is not personal security services. Law enforcement in general have to arrest people should a criminal infraction occurs. That individual has broken a law and the job of law enforcement is to enforce the established laws and arrest those individuals who violated them.

Freedom

Enjoy the debate begins , but ask yourself this with respect to ffx case if the officer didn’t have the taser I don’t think he would have shot the individual- I rest my case

Voltaire

Freedom--there's no case here for you to rest on. You cannot say that with any degree of certainty. If the officer didn't use his TASER, he could shot the individual with his service weapon and killed him. No, the TASER, if properly deployed and personnel properly trained, is an effective weapon to subdue an individual with using lethal force.

Freedom

He and the system broke the law and sold out on him as the sole person - tasers are joke

Voltaire

Freedom--that is wrong. In the case of Fairfax County, the system worked. TASERs work, if the officer is trained on usage.

amerigirl

Vol, have you seen the video? The suspect was not committing a crime he was having a medical emergency. The cop who tased him arrived, got out of his car and immediately tased the guy. He had to walk by a rescue vehicle, he did not access the situation, he hit the guy on the back of the head with the taser while he was on the ground. And tased him again. He had both of his knees on the guy, the guy who was saying that he was having a hard time breathing and needed oxygen before the bad cop got there. Please look at the video before you say that was the right thing to do.

amerigirl

Freedom, did you see the other cop there that had almost gotten the guy into the rescue squad? They were called there for a medical emergency not a crime. Do you believe it’s alright to do that to someone that is already having problems breathing, that is saying they can’t breathe and need oxygen? So glad you aren’t a health care worker.

Voltaire

AG--I have read all documentation and looked at all corresponding video. I stated that the use of a TASER is an effective tool PROVIDED that the officer is sufficiently trained in the use of the instrument. I did not defend the officer as it looks to me that the officer was in non-compliance with the field guide procedures.

Virginia SGP

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Look at the study "An Empirical Analysis of Racial Di↵erences in Police Use of Force" by Fryer. You cannot look at population to determine use of force rates because most individuals do not encounter police as they are not involved in crimes. Blacks commit more murders overall despite being a low percentage of the population. Based on contextual encounters, "we find no racial di↵erences in either the raw data or when contextualfactors are taken into account".

Learn to research actual logical analyses.

Guest

Brian - a Fairfax cop was fired today for excessive force. Stop pretending there are no problems

Virginia SGP

If justified, the system worked.

Are you saying there will never be any mistakes? That police can omnisciently know whether a suspect is armed? Or will shoot at them? Or is faking when most of them say "I can't breathe"?

The officers who were disciplined in Buffalo should not have been discipllined. That was against a white activist and the cops did nothing wrong.

Please tell us what you are saying. If anybody violates any rules, should we dissolve the police?

Guest

Mistake? Nothing about the reason this happened or how without cameras this cop would still be on the force. You denial that racism exists disgusts me. Please send your kids to public school so that can learn to be better than you

Voltaire

Guest--Source? I know from WTOP that the Fairfax County Police Department is currently reviewing the officer's use of a TASER to subdue a suspect and that the officer was facing charges being issued by the Fairfax County's Commonwealth Attorney. There is no information on any of the local stations or WTOP's websites concerning the officer being fired.

amerigirl

Vol, this shows every gory detail https://www.insidenova.com/body-camera-footage-of-fairfax-county-use-of-force-incident/video_2d06026a-a880-11ea-8e23-734cb94e5776.html

Voltaire

AG--thanks for the link. Interesting. The question that I raised was the premise that the officer was fired by the Fairfax County Police Department as I hadn't heard that was the case.

Loudoun4Trump

Not true....WaPo has the stats and killings by cops of any race is way down from the Obama years and attacks on police have skyrocketed....Tucker had a great monologue quoting the WaPo facts that monitor this.....I would watch that to educate yourself on facts about cops killing citizens....

Guest

Where to begin, first let's tackle the obvious racism itself has been part of both political parties over the years. I think people need to understand that saying all live matters is a cop out considering unarmed black men and women are being killed at a higher rate then anyone else. As for the historical fact about slavery which lets be real most of those facts have been diluted in the history books in the school systems. You should read about Jane Elliott a schoolteacher, anti-racism activist, and educator. She is known for her "Blue eyes–Brown eyes" exercise. She first conducted her famous exercise for her class on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. To address your present day slavery topic, is it hard for you to understand 246 years of slavery, plus 87 years of Jim Crow era and systemic policies that hinder, harm, and do not promote equality? This is where black people find themselves today and we are tired. Clearly it may be hard for white America to understand however this country was built on the backs of slaves, not white people who benefited from this. The wealth that was created for generations to come still exists. Perfect example a slave taught Jack Daniels how to make whiskey, that wasn't made public until 2017 when Uncle Nearst whiskey was started shed light on that little known fact. Our stolen history and the contributions made by black people should have been included in every history book. At the end of the day until equality can be freely obtain what do you think black people should do? I personally feel that until things become equal and fair across the board we will keep arriving at this same point.

romano

"unarmed black men and women are being killed at a higher rate than anyone else"

Except they're not.

THE DATA IS CLEAR ON THIS. The entire premise for these protests is wrong. It isn't happening. This doesn't matter for someone who just wants to appear "woke" but if facts matter to you, look it up.

This is why so many of us have a problem with these protests/riots. These peaceful marchers are by and large good people who think they are doing something good. But they simply don't have their facts straight. Take the time to look at the data. Don't be a sheep.

Guest

So, let me make sure I understand your point. Police are not killing unarmed black men & women at a higher rate than other races? Your data may be CLEAR but it is wrong. From Statista: Police Shootings, rate by ethnicity, US 2015-2020: Black 30 per million population; Hispanic 23 per million; White 12 per million; other 4 per million. And data-aware as you say you are, I'm sure you know that there has been trouble gathering this data since the government does not report it in the uniform crime statistics. Let us know what data you are using or keep quite about it.

Virginia SGP

Your denominator is wrong. It is not whether police are killing rural whites in towns with no murders in the last 10 years at the same rate as urban minorities in crime infested neighborhoods. The question is whether police kill whites at the same rate as minorities when they encounter them. Since blacks (at 13% of the population) commit MORE murders than whites who represent over 60% of the population, police have far more encounters with blacks in a potential criminal setting.

Harvard researcher Fryer published research on this and "we find no racial di↵erences in either the raw data or when contextualfactors are taken into account".

Let me ask you a real question: If I were to tell you that whites kill TWICE as many blacks per year than blacks kill whites, would you conclude that is caused by racism is systemic oppression?

romano

Any study or data that doesn’t take into account the number of police encounters blacks have vs whites is not legitimate. If you want to argue about the reasons blacks are disproportionally committing crimes, that is a different story, although a pretty short argument.

According to the Washington Post database of national police shootings in 2019, nine unarmed black men were killed by police in 2019. Based on arrest records, that computed to 1 in 292,373 arrests. 19 unarmed white men were killed by police in 2019 . Based on arrest records, that computed to 1 in 282,629. The study thus concludes that unarmed white men are more likely to be killed during police arrests than unarmed black men are. Bet you didn’t hear about that on CNN.

This from an analysis of the Post database and some other studies:

However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians. A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

On Memorial Day weekend in Chicago alone, 10 African-Americans were killed in drive-by shootings. Such routine violence has continued—a 72-year-old Chicago man shot in the face on May 29 by a gunman who fired about a dozen shots into a residence; two 19-year-old women on the South Side shot to death as they sat in a parked car a few hours earlier; a 16-year-old boy fatally stabbed with his own knife that same day. This past weekend, 80 Chicagoans were shot in drive-by shootings, 21 fatally, the victims overwhelmingly black. Police shootings are not the reason that blacks die of homicide at eight times the rate of whites and Hispanics combined; criminal violence is.

The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.

A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.

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Guest

Someone is ANGRY today.

Comment deleted.
Guest

Very conservative here and our entire family was still out marching. This is OUR town!

scottva

It's really amazing to see how quick some people are to take cheap shots at those that don't support BLM. A peaceful protest of any kind is great. But you Liberals or Romney-Republicans fail to see the underlying issue, it's not the protest itself it's the overall message. BLM and people with white guilt are marching and protesting to end racism, got it. How can racism end when BLM singles out ALL white people as racists? Isn't this racist?

If people really wanted to minimize racism they then must admit that the word "racist" is not reserved for whites only. They need to stop with the blanket statements and generalizations that all whites are racists, that all whites are responsible for any sort of racial injustice a black person may have experienced in their lifetime and that all whites must apologize for any and all racial injustices. There's not one black person I know that was or currently is a slave. There's not one white person I know that was or currently is a slave owner. A typical response is "go back and study history you racist". Fair enough. However, as I tried to learn more about slavery, I stumbled on what is an inconvenient truth, Democrats created the KKK, which spawned much of white supremacy you so smartly reference today. Perhaps you need a little history lesson. While you're at it, look up the Klan Bake.

For all you self righteous guilt ridden white people and black people that continue to remind us about how awful slavery was (which it was), what are you doing to help real life, present day black slaves? What are you doing to help black slaves of today, many of which are American citizens? How can you be so passionate about slavery hundreds of years ago and yet you say NOTHING about real-life slavery in 2020? I know what I'm doing to try and help but it's crickets from you all. Take a look at the organization Operation Underground Railroad if you are really bothered by slavery.

How does an alcoholic or drug addict stand a chance at maintaining a sober life? By not forgetting the past but not living in the past either. By letting go of resentments against others or themselves. As soon as BLM and the white people walking around with a 50lb bag of white guilt can discuss racism at a macro level, include white people as part of the solution instead of saying we're all part of the problem and quit with the demands of defunding our police departments, I'll be the first one to join in the discussions.

Until then, I will continue to walk around guilt free, will not apologize for things I have not done and will not feel ashamed because I am a white man, not a privileged white man, just your average white man. None of this means racism does not exist because it does, except it's not unidirectional and NOT something that is only be perpetuated by whites, black people and others are just as guilty.

Guest

Well thought and well written. I'm 100% with you

Guest

Don't worry brother, most of us are with you. That's where the other 6k residents were; peacefully in their home waiting for this nonsense to end.

Juan.

Well thought and well written. Im 1000% with you.. As a latino of immigrant parents born and raised in NYC, I don't believe in systemic racism. Are there racist people, sure. That will never change because humans are tribal by nature. Shelby Steele once wrote that racism is like stupidity, there will always be someone who behaves or acts that way. But you can't tell me there's systemic racism in a country where I now own a home in one of the wealthiest counties in America. I grew up with roaches in my apartment, across the street were the projects. But, my mom always told me, in America anything's possible. Today, what we see is a perpetual victim type mindset. Life will always suck for you if that's your approach. Life isn't fair, get over it and deal with it like a grown man. This is America, the land of milk and honey, go and get it!

Guest

Agreed. Proud of you

Guest

The police and law and order prevent us devolving into a tribal society where everything is race, ethnicity and family. BLM is racist. They deny that all lives matter and claim to say so is itself racist. What is BLM's objective? To eliminate racism they would have to eliminate themselves as a first objective. The protests strike me as most directly a case of idle time doing the devils work. Because of the pandemic people have little to do and have lost the work ethic that keeps a lot of them out of trouble. Protesting and rioting are fun and different. You get to parade your virtue, meet new people and yell at power. This is all new and exciting and if there is no apparent purpose that's fine. For all of those who saying our society is oppressive and not inclusive see what the Chinese Communist party is doing to Hong Kong and did at Tianamin Square and they are sure not a diverse society in China. The United States is the fairest country in the world. If you think equal results are fair look at North Korea where everyone except a tiny fraction are equally poor and miserable. In the US you get opportunity to pursue your own life. Nothing in this world is fair but we are very fortunate to live in the greatest county known to man. I don't see the 'progress' in tearing it down for the power hungry ambitions of BLM, Antifa and the Democrat party (remember party of the KKI and proponents of Jim Crow and against the Civil Rights laws. Minneapolis, Chicago, DC, Richmond, Los Angeles, Detroit: all Democrat cities run by their party and their police for years.

amerigirl

All lives matter, then how do you explain the treatment white people get being so much better than the treatment people of color get? That is the point they are trying to make, not that others don't matter but the death rate is much higher for unarmed blacks than unarmed whites when there are so many more whites than blacks. Just because other countries are oppressive does not excuse this happening in the USA. We are part of NATO which tries to stop all the oppression. Now NATO has called out the US for their treatment of blacks, that should be a hint that something is wrong. You have it backwards, the democratic and republican parties switched platforms. If you are a republican now you would have been a democrat then. For a quick history lesson watch the YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVktIq-_nN0 ,Cities are cities and will have the same problems with underprivileged people regardless of who runs the city.

Voltaire

AG--Doesn't NATO have some more pressing concern, such as relevance? NATO's strategic objective was, "...in the words of Lord Ismay, its first Secretary General, was “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down.” Those goals largely defined NATO’s mission over its first 40 years. In 1955, West Germany was incorporated into the Alliance. That decision was largely prompted by the need to integrate German military forces into NATO to ensure that the Alliance’s manpower would be sufficient to blunt a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. In response, the Soviet Union organized the Warsaw Pact as its own collective security organization consisting of itself and the communist countries in Eastern Europe." Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1989, NATO’s primary purpose has become largely obsolete. The Warsaw Pact has disintegrated. Indeed, many of its former members are now part of NATO. The prospect of a Russian invasion of Western Europe has largely vanished. Even if it wanted to, Russia simply lacks the force structure to execute such an invasion much less successfully occupy Western Europe. I think that they should focus on the organization's relevancy and let the domestic issues of each country be handled by that country.

SelfReliant1

Wonderful success story! I love your mother's optimism and your attitude, "Life isn't fair, get over it and deal with it like a grown man." I am a woman, and I'd like to add that I'm tired of the victim mindset...coming from women too!

Guest

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBI8lo0Hzy3/?igshid=1vu0t0e4jjtje

Guest

You mentioned examples of how people can not live in the past and let go of resentments. That’s good and all but you seem to forget about the same racism that happen in the past is still happening in the present.

And how are you saying but being white you are not privileged? Are you saying you are not treated differently than if someone is non-white. Do you get harassed when you speak another language other than English?

Comment deleted.
Guest

Hmmm - not a good way to get your point across. Shhhhhhhh

Guest

I’m a Republican and I was there. Stop with the “conservatives are racist” trope. Everything doesn’t fall neatly into a handful of convenient categories.

Freedom

I encourage all protestors to get a covid19 test it appears several cases have been linked to the protests. Peace and love fight the virus

Voltaire

Guest--very good point.

Eli Rachtowitz

This was a fantastic event. People of all ages and races came together under the notion of peace and harmony for not only the community but all of society. I was very surprised and pleased to see that their will be other BLM gathering in Ashburn and Sterling. While the highlight of the previous event in Leesburg was getting some hippie strange, I was able to successfully score some nappy dugout for the first time. Ice Cube was right,” give me a sista I can’t resist her”

Guest

You are supporting a BLM/NAACP lie and perpetuating a black victimhood mentality.

Guest

My man.

Virginia SGP

"Guest", so let's look at the number of police killings by year of unarmed individuals (compared to an average of 85 officers killed each year):

2015: 38 Blacks vs 32

2016: 19 Blacks vs 22

2017: 22 Blacks vs 31

2018: 23 Blacks vs 25

2019: 15 Blacks vs 25

Given that 10% of police officers killed were by "unarmed" suspects, the fact that a suspect is unarmed doesn't render them not potentially dangerous. Having video cameras (body cameras) has been a great reform. But the notion that police killings of unarmed civilians is in the top 20 problems for anybody is pure fantasy.

What are the problems especially for minorities? Quality, effective teachers. All these liberals out there protesting couldn't care less that we have some absolutely horrible teachers who cripple the career aspirations of disadvantaged students in LCPS. We can easily find out who the teachers are because we have the data. But rather than ousting them, these clueless liberals give them 8-10% raises every year. That's racist against the kids who just want to learn as most of these ineffective teachers are rich white women.

The second issue is a strong economy. Trump led the economy to the lowest unemployment rate on records, no thanks to the tax-and-regulate Leftists. And now, when we see the risk of covid mortality to folks under 50 per the CDC is 1 in 3000 (that includes those with underlying conditions), our Leftist politicians (that includes Matt "slush fund" Letourneau) are still trying to keep hard-working business owners from opening. The way you provide more wealth to minorities is you provide more economic opportunity. Americans should understand that European nations have a GDP per capita about 1/3 less than America. Folks should stop worrying about who is ahead of them in the race and start appreciating the economic prosperity we have because we Americans are all way ahead of the (1st world) Europeans.

Qwertyuiop

There’s the Sad Grumpy Pest we all know!

Deny systemic racism - check

Teacher bash - check

Pandemic deny - check

Trump handy - check

Bash me for posting this - preemptive check

ChocolateDinosaur

LOL. We call him misery loves company at the watering hole. He is not putting on an act for the Internet.

Guest

Knew you would not be far behind.

Virginia SGP

Funny how so many horrific teachers get upset about someone speaking out on a newspaper chat forum in response to speaking out (marches) in Purcelleville.

Notice how I posted facts and not a singe one of these radical Leftist teachers could either (a) refute them nor (b) counter with any facts of their own. They are running our schools with their opinion activism. No wonder our minorities cannot get jobs with tech companies who make decisions on facts, data and logic. Because they have these witchrats corrupting their minds without teaching them anything.

You all are the most pathetic, useless exucses for human beings one can imagine. Minorities cannot lift themselves up because of your RACIST, virtue-signalling, Leftist nonsense. We shouldn't defund the police who are protecting the innocent, peaceful minorities in those communities. We should defund the radical, incompetent, Leftist teachers of LCPS!!!

Guest

Not a teacher but a parent who has followed your exploits for years. Never understood how you expect anyone to respect you if you are not prepare to respect yourself